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Wednesday, June 16, 2010
On Aqsa Parvez
We have now learned what most of us knew in our hearts all along. That, Aqsa Parvez, was killed by her father. for the crime of violating religious orthodoxy. She was brutally strangled her to death, while her despicable mother was simply expecting a daughter with broken arms and lengths. She didn't think he'd go that far.
But in the end, Aqsa's mother blamed her daughter's intransigence with the religious customs she demanded of her, for her bloody end: "Oh god, oh god... Oh my Aqsa, you should have listened,” she would say aloud to police in a secluded interrogation room. “Everyone tried to make you understand. Everyone begged you, but you did not listen." Indeed.
The evil of orthodox religion has shown it's tooth with Aqsa, and while Christians use this as an opportunity to espouse the superiority of Christianity, it's worth pointing out that honour killings/beatings/exclusion among Christians are not completely unknown to the modern world. You need not look far to find examples, particularly in regards to homosexuality.
Take Jerry Lee Segar of Florida, who killed his daughter's lesbian lover after learning of their three-year affair. Or Ronnie Paris Jr. who killed his three-year-old son because he thought his son was gay.
While Christian honour killings pale in sheer numbers to those that happen in the Muslim world -- and that's not a point that's lost on me -- the simple fact is that organized religion is a force of conformity and intolerance that can, at worst, lead to honour killings, and -- while less morally repugnant -- all too often leads to disownment and exclusion of those who step outside the boundaries of the orthodoxy.
Disowned gay and lesbian children is certainly a common theme in Christian circles. I know of several. One is the case of a Starbucks assistant manager in Toronto's Greek Town. Coming out gay to his parents resulted in a beating by his father that left him hospitalized for three days, with multiple broken fingers and the extreme psychological trauma of being severely beaten by one of your own parents as a grown man, for doing nothing more than being honest and true to himself.
I reject religion, in general, because contrary to it's pedlars, religion is not a force of tolerance. It is a force of conformity, and often, outright hatred for those who do not conform.
No religion is innocent on these issues. From Buddhist Monks to Hindus, violence has been an omnipresent facet of religion. From Northern Ireland, the West Bank, Kashmir, to the ultra-catholic South America, religion is the reason for so much violence and hatred against those who do not conform.
There is no moral equivalence to be drawn, say, between Western Christianity and fundamentalist Islam. If you wanted to get down to sheer numbers in a pissing war, I think we can all agree that the latter wins hands down. But the idea that this fact validates other religions is laughable at best. I am, after all, unfamiliar with any cases of atheist honor killings.
Posted by Mike Brock on June 16, 2010 | Permalink
Comments
I am, after all, unfamiliar with any cases of atheist honor killings.
Posted by Mike Brock on June 16, 2010 at 06:01 PM
1000's, possible 100,000's of Russian and Ukrainian Christians murdered by the Bolshevik's in the 1920's and 1930's merely for being Christians.
Posted by: The Stig | 2010-06-16 6:47:56 PM
Islam seems to be more of a political ideology than a religion presently. Honor killings and jihad are not just practiced by a few on the fringes, but rather is a much more common practice that is promoted by many of its leaders.
And without religion, humans will find some other reason to abuse and kill each other anyway.
Every human has faith of some kind in my opnion. It is when we force it on others that it takes on an ugly form. Interestingly this leads to a discussion about property rights. And without property rights I would reject all the good things (and there is a lot) done by "religious" people.
Posted by: TM | 2010-06-16 6:54:15 PM
Those weren't atheist honor killings. Atheism is not an ideology. The ideology was communism and all other value systems were it's enemy. I am sure that libertarian atheists would have been killed, too, Stig.
In fact, people were killed merely for being "land owners". The attempt to conflate atheism with communism is an absurd dishonest argument.
And the genocides of Lenin, Stalin and Mao are hardly honor killings, but rather ideological cleansings. None done in the name of atheism, but in the name of their own prophet, Karl Marx.
Posted by: Mike Brock | 2010-06-16 6:56:00 PM
Communism and organized religion both share the trait of idol worship. For some it's an invisible man in the sky, for others it's Ché.
Capitalism, too, was an ideology born of largely atheist and agnostic thinkers. Hayek, Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman were prominent in the 21st century.
So nice try. Although, I do admit that some Randians do have a bit of an idol worship thing going on.
Posted by: Mike Brock | 2010-06-16 7:00:02 PM
Mike, atheists are not free from ideology are they?
Posted by: TM | 2010-06-16 7:02:07 PM
"1000's, possible 100,000's of Russian and Ukrainian Christians murdered by the Bolshevik's in the 1920's and 1930's merely for being Christians. "
Not honor killings Stig, but I get your point. Although it was not their religion that got them killed, they were a threat to the Bolsheviks power. It wouldn't have mattered what religion it was, as the communist party in Russia killed many Jews, Muslims, Christians ect. They were all seen as a threat to the state. So it was statism that killed all those people, not atheism. But I'm sure that point will be argued. Right Matthews?
Posted by: Steve Bottrell | 2010-06-16 7:05:51 PM
Atheism is not an ideology in any regard. It prescribes no rules, no values, no anything. It is nothing more
than a state of belief in the supernatural and deities.
Most libertarians I know are either agnostic of atheist. And most socialists I know, too, are atheists.
But some socialists are religious. Like Tony Blair, for instance.
Also, not all communists were atheists. Some communists practiced their faith privately in the USSR, but otherwise supported the ideology.
You can draw no logical links between atheism and ideology.
You can draw some correlations between certain political ideologies and the likelihood it's adherents will be atheists, but that's a correlation not a causation.
Posted by: Mike Brock | 2010-06-16 7:10:54 PM
Here is one libertarian who is also a Christian. Anyway, I did not suggest a correlation. I asked if atheists can also be ideological. I find it hard to believe there is a human on the planet that is not ideological about some things. I don't think it matters what faith or religion or lack thereof, they subscribe to.
Posted by: TM | 2010-06-16 7:19:45 PM
Those weren't atheist honor killings. Atheism is not an ideology.
Posted by: Mike Brock | 2010-06-16 6:56:00 PM
I would argue that communism is in fact a religion, and that non-believers were a threat and had to be eliminated.
Posted by: The Stig | 2010-06-16 7:21:21 PM
"And without religion, humans will find some other reason to abuse and kill each other anyway."
I disagree. How many wars are started over atheism? None that I know of. How many wars have been started over religion? Most of them. Money (A religion in its own right) and resources certainly play a part in our wars, but religion seems to be wedged in there as well. When is the last time we went to war with a country of white people? WW2. And that one was about money. If you get a chance, watch The Death of the West Part 1: Prehistory to World War One - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASODMKCJcsk&playnext_from=TL&videos=NmBIoOD7W9E
Its 3 parts, and will take up about a hour and a half of your life, but well worth it, IMO.
Posted by: Steve Bottrell | 2010-06-16 7:25:01 PM
I listened to some guy named Dr. Mohammed give a similar speech on the radio, a couple of days ago. Technically, you're both full of shit. You're nothing more than apologists for Islam.
True "honour killings" cannot exist in Christian culture, because there are strict rules against killing in general. The incidents you described aren't honour killings, they're anger killings. An honour killing is a means of restoring the honour of a family, and that does not happen in Christian culture. Even the most fanatical Christian would not condone this, nor would he publicly glorify it. Christians, as a group, are always quick to distance themselves from fanatics who commit vile acts in the name of religion.
Muslims, on the other hand, remain mostly silent when one of their own kills his baby, or flies an airplane into an office tower, or incites others to commit murder over an insult. Honour killings are an accepted custom in many, many muslim cultures.
If you want to paint every religion with the same brush, why shouldn't we assume all athiests have the same disrespect for human freedoms? Get your head out of your ass. All religions are not equal.
Posted by: dp | 2010-06-16 7:27:08 PM
Stig,
Friedrich Nietzsche, a well known atheist, famously argued that communism was a religion. As have many other atheists, including Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. So you're preaching to the choir on that point.
Posted by: Mike Brock | 2010-06-16 7:27:14 PM
Steve, you might as well be saying "if everyone was perfect there would be no wars." Atheists may tend to be less ideological, but to believe they could all be from from it is... ideological.
Posted by: TM | 2010-06-16 7:29:55 PM
The attempt to conflate atheism with communism is an absurd dishonest argument.
Posted by: Mike Brock | 2010-06-16 6:56:00 PM
One of the main if not central social / moral tenets of communism is the eradication of religion. Every communist regime from Allende to Zinoviev has attempted it. The Utopian omelet can't be created without breaking a few eggs. The communists confirmed what Dostoyevsky wrote, "If God is not, everything is permitted".
Posted by: The Stig | 2010-06-16 7:45:58 PM
But I didn't say that. I said there would be less war. Far less war. Look at the countries that have a high percentage of atheists vs religion dominated countries and the violence they inflict on themselves and countries around them. When was the last time Sweden (80%+ atheist)went to war or killed its citizens because they broke some dumb ass religious law? How about Somalia? The fundies there killed 2 of their own a few days ago for watching the world cup soccer. They should have been praying to their invisible, do nothing god instead. 2 to 3 hundred years ago the christians where doing similar things, and waged massive wars for their invisible, do nothing god. No religion that I can think of at the moment can claim to have no blood on its hands.
Posted by: Steve Bottrell | 2010-06-16 7:53:54 PM
Great, another story of islamic brutality that our atheist friends use to trash Christianity(instead of recognizing that islam needs a period of reformation)! Once again, they use every crime committed by an islamist to say that all religions are bad. Funny, in Florida, there was a lesbian serial killer a couple years back. I don't remember too many people in my area running around and yelling that all lesbians were serial killers. Mike and Steve, we get it! You hate religion and you really hate christianity! I don't think that you would burn down a church like some atheist radicals have in the American south(but atheists aren't haters,right!). However, I'm sure that you would probably have no compunction about roasting marshmallows over the flames! You badmouth people of faith! Fine, I'm not too impressed with atheists! Most of the ones I've met have egos the size of Canada and brains the size of a pea. You renounce God fine! I wish you luck when your time comes! Your beliefs are irrelevant to my life. Furthermore, since I don't live in Canada, I'm pretty sure that your views have little influence on public policy debate in my state. I also think that it would be the funniest thing if your kids rebelled(as children often do) against your militant atheism by embracing faith. I would love to see how much tolerance that you would show in such an event! So anyway, lets go our seperate ways! You can work on making Canada a land where religion is despised! Meanwhile, I'll work to make the U.S. a country centered on the beliefs of limited government(get the government out of as much of the economy as possible), a country where government only intervenes to protect those who truly can't look after themselves(the disabled, the aged, the unborn, etc.), a land where a well armed citizenry serves as a counter weight to potential government tyranny, and a land where Judeo-Christian values and secularism find a balance(a modern republic can find a middle ground between a hardcore anti-religion secular country like France and a far too religiously controlled country like Iran). You make Canada in your image. I will vote to push America toward the idea that I have in mind. Let's see who wins the battle of ideas!
Posted by: Poe | 2010-06-16 7:57:58 PM
Stig, hate to break it to you, but communism won. Do you think we (the state) are not communist? Here is a link to a very interesting paper, that looks at the 10 major demands of the communist manifesto and compares it to our system. Its only one page. A fast read.
http://freedomainradio.com/Blogs/tabid/63/Article/21/the-20th-century-fight-against-communism.aspx
Something to think about.
Posted by: Steve Bottrell | 2010-06-16 8:01:01 PM
This is what Toronto does to people.
Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2010-06-16 8:01:26 PM
@Poe, hate game, not the players. I am very much against violence, for whatever reason. That doesn't mean I am going to sit in the corner and be quiet when religious people bring up their stupid beliefs to me. Lets just say the Jehovah's don't knock on my door anymore. LOL
Posted by: Steve Bottrell | 2010-06-16 8:08:29 PM
"The greatest butchers in history were atheists. "
False. Taken over time, your church alone killed far more than any atheist leader. Oh, and Hitler was not an atheist. In fact, he was raised in Catholic orthodoxy. In Mien Kampf he made several references to god. For instance,
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” - Adolf Hitler
Lets include the other religions, and the body count is staggering.
Posted by: Steve Bottrell | 2010-06-16 8:21:35 PM
Hey what happened to Matthews post? I was just settling in to rip that pedantic butthead a new one.
Posted by: Steve Bottrell | 2010-06-16 8:27:19 PM
False. Taken over time, your church alone killed far more than any atheist leader.
We've been round this maypole before, Steve. As I recall, I presented a pretty exhaustive list refuting this statement. You will not, of course, be able to provide numbers proving this statement, because they don't exist.
Oh, and Hitler was not an atheist. In fact, he was raised in Catholic orthodoxy.
And I was raised as an atheist and became a Catholic. This statement proves nothing. Nothing, that is, except spurred by Mike, you're back to the "baby-raping, child-killing priesthood." Having another "bad day," Steve?
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” - Adolf Hitler
Right, and politicians never lie, nor do they ever use religion as a hook on which to hang a war that is truly predicated by motives far more vulgar and base. Your arguments are laughable.
Lets include the other religions, and the body count is staggering.
Numbers, numbers. (Is everyone waiting with baited breath for the numbers? Well, breathe in, because they'll be a long time coming.)
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2010-06-16 8:28:06 PM
Steve,
It seems his thoughts just don't have any staying power. :)
Posted by: Mike Brock | 2010-06-16 8:29:02 PM
By the way, all religions condemn so-called "honour killings." The reason they are more prevalent in Islamic society is not because of religious fundamentalism, but rather because such taboos and associated punishments are common among tribal societies, and Islamic societies are far more tribal than contemporary Europeans. This tribalism also explains the perpetual wars and violence among Muslims. As their tribal consciousness fades, so will these outrages.
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2010-06-16 8:37:02 PM
Living in Toronto will make you want to kill your loved ones. Is it like the Masque of the Red Death? The Ship of Fools? Nah, even Zombieland has more culture than Tronna.
Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2010-06-16 8:44:16 PM
"We've been round this maypole before, Steve. As I recall, I presented a pretty exhaustive list refuting this statement. You will not, of course, be able to provide numbers proving this statement, because they don't exist."
Here you go.
"I heard a while back that more people had died in the name of Jesus than in the name of Hitler. I’d always wondered if it was true, it seemed perfectly plausible given the persistence and viciousness of the Vatican during the Crusades. Unfortunately, I had found it difficult to find a number of deaths from the Crusades. But, I found in Google Answers, this webpage that chronicles numerous human conflicts and includes a category for religious conflicts. The numbers are hazy, of course, when we’re speaking about conflicts hundreds or thousands of years ago when death tallies were not a priority or of mild interest like they are today.
In short, 809 million people have died in religious wars. That’s nearly a billion people.
Often times, a retort is that secular ideals and Godless Communism have killed many more. It is true that Stalin, among others, slaughtered his own people by the millions during the industrialization of Soviet Russia. By comparison, 209 million have died in the name of Communism. Some 62 million died during World War II, civilian and military, on all sides. Conclusively, more people have died in the name of religion than in the name of Communism or Hitler, or the two combined times two."
-http://bookrate.wordpress.com/2006/07/22/deaths-over-history-religious-vs-nonreligous/
And lets not forget about the several million your god supposedly killed. Not including the flood, where he wiped everyone out.
"And I was raised as an atheist and became a Catholic. This statement proves nothing. Nothing, that is, except spurred by Mike, you're back to the "baby-raping, child-killing priesthood." Having another "bad day," Steve?"
You where raised an atheist where you? I think you where raised with out religion, that's different. And when did I mention your churches predilection with child molestation? Though it is worth mentioning. And nope, having a good day thanks.
"Right, and politicians never lie, nor do they ever use religion as a hook on which to hang a war that is truly predicated by motives far more vulgar and base. Your arguments are laughable."
Here comes the denial and qualifiers. But, but, but.... Here is a link to the many quotes from Hitler about his religion. You are laughable.
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html
"Numbers, numbers. (Is everyone waiting with baited breath for the numbers? Well, breathe in, because they'll be a long time coming.)"
See above, fast enough for you?
Posted by: Steve Bottrell | 2010-06-16 8:49:03 PM
I heard a while back that more people had died in the name of Jesus than in the name of Hitler...
This is a fucking OPINION PIECE. I want HARD NUMBERS. NOW.
In short, 809 million people have died in religious wars. That’s nearly a billion people.
That’s a mighty heady boast, considering that the total population of the entire world in the Middle Ages did not top 300 million people. If you were educated, Steve, or had any functioning brain cells left, you’d have thought to check that.
You where raised an atheist where you? I think you where raised with out religion, that's different.
Says who and based on what? If atheism is not an ideology, but the absence of ideology, than being raised as nothing as being raised as an atheist, correct?
And when did I mention your churches predilection with child molestation?
Here comes the denial and qualifiers. But, but, but.... Here is a link to the many quotes from Hitler about his religion. You are laughable.
So in answer to the point that politicians lie, you offer...more quotes from the same politician? Isn’t that like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it? Especially when that politician is history's most notorious dictator?
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2010-06-16 9:00:07 PM
Hey Mike, check out that vid I recommended earlier. You will find it very interesting.
Posted by: Steve Bottrell | 2010-06-16 9:00:40 PM
And when did I mention your churches predilection with child molestation?
On numerous occasions, on numerous other threads. One time it got so bad that the other bloggers called you on it and you actually apologized the next day. Of course, you have an excuse if your memory isn't up to snuff, don't you?
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2010-06-16 9:03:41 PM
"This is a fucking OPINION PIECE. I want HARD NUMBERS. NOW."
Who gives a fuck what you want. Do your own research you lazy prick.
"That’s a mighty heady boast, considering that the total population of the entire world in the Middle Ages did not top 300 million people. If you were educated, Steve, or had any functioning brain cells left, you’d have thought to check that."
Are you that retarded? That tally is over the last 2000 years, not at one time. And I see you skipped over your gods death count.
"Says who and based on what? If atheism is not an ideology, but the absence of ideology, than being raised as nothing as being raised as an atheist, correct?"
Did your daddy ever say "Son, god does not exist, and here's why." Did he make sure you understood? I'm thinking not.
"So in answer to the point that politicians lie, you offer...more quotes from the same politician? Isn’t that like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it? Especially when that politician is history's most notorious dictator?"
Well how many times does one have to profess in religion before you believe them? Face it assface, Hitler was not an atheist. In fact, you can add the death count of WW2 to the religious tally. I'm sure the Jews would agree.
Posted by: Steve Bottrell | 2010-06-16 9:09:31 PM
"On numerous occasions, on numerous other threads. One time it got so bad that the other bloggers called you on it and you actually apologized the next day. Of course, you have an excuse if your memory isn't up to snuff, don't you?"
Ahh the redirect. Have you no shame? And which bloggers would that be? I remember quite well thanks. I apologized to you, because that's the kind of person I am. I don't like to keep things bottled up, and sometimes I regret the statements I make. Not because of the statement, but because I felt like I was attacking you personally. But since you do it to me, and everyone else who doesn't agree with you, I changed my mind. And this post IS about religion. Always the little pot dig ay? It just kills you that I don't match up to your stereotype doesn't it?
Posted by: Steve Bottrell | 2010-06-16 9:19:54 PM
Who gives a fuck what you want. Do your own research you lazy prick.
I have, and it soundly trounced the horseshit you’ve been peddling. From highest to lowest:
WWII (balance of power struggle): 72 million
WWI (balance of power struggle): 65 million
Mongol Conquests (empire-building): 60 million
An Shi rebellion (uprising and resultant suppression): 33 million
Taiping rebellion (uprising and resultant suppression): 30 million
Qing Dynasty conquest of Ming Dynasty: 20 million
Tamerlane (empire-building): 20 million
Penthay Rebellion (separatist movement): 12 million
In fact, to see any religious war at all, you have to go all the way down to number 9 on the list, with the Thirty Years’ War at 11 million. Then the French Wars of Religion, number 15, at 4 million. The crusades are actually at number 19, with 2 million casualties (most of them Christians; the Muslims of that era were much better organized).
809 million, huh? The three biggest religious wars in history total only 17 million, and even in those cases there were political factors in the mix as well as religion. This is what happens when you don’t do your homework, Steve; you end up sitting in the corner wearing a pointy hat.
Are you that retarded? That tally is over the last 2000 years, not at one time.
Are you retarded? Your numbers have the entire pre-Renaissance population of the world being completely wiped out three times in 1,000 years. (There have been no religious wars of any significance in the last several centuries).
Did your daddy ever say "Son, god does not exist, and here's why." Did he make sure you understood? I'm thinking not.
He didn’t say God did exist, either. Are you saying that a person is religious by default unless instructed otherwise? Stop dancing. You have been caught, once again, shooting off your mouth before loading your brain.
Well how many times does one have to profess in religion before you believe them?
If the professor is a politician promoting a war, a safe answer would be: Never.
Face it assface, Hitler was not an atheist.
Stalin was. Mao was. Pol Pot was. All communists were. And Hitler’s non-atheism is simply your opinion. Which is what your entire screed boils down to.
In fact, you can add the death count of WW2 to the religious tally. I'm sure the Jews would agree.
No, I can’t, because Hitler was interested in purifying an Aryan race. It was the genetic and ethnic heritage of the Jews Hitler sought to expunge from Germany, not their religion. That's why he targeted Gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals, and other “undesirables” as well, most of whom were Christians. Sorry, no dice.
Put down the bong, Steve; you’re hallucinating again. 809 million. As fucking if. It's easily brainwashed haters like you that propagandists like Hitler target, you know. So the next time you start bemoaning the death toll from genocides and massacres by charismatic leaders, reflect on how much of it was the fault of people like you.
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2010-06-16 9:32:05 PM
Marxism-Leninism and its offshoots may be atheist, but the ideological roots of communism go back far beyond Marx. At the time Marx was writing, most other communists were in fact Christian. If anyone's looking for a fantastic read, I'd recommend Norman Cohn's The Pursuit of the Millennium which is a wonderful and definitive account of the medieval millenarian Christian denominations/cults/sects/heresies which first theorized and practiced communism.
Posted by: Kalim Kassam | 2010-06-16 9:32:25 PM
Ahh the redirect. Have you no shame?
It’s called a “reminder,” actually. And by popular accord, the one who should be ashamed is you.
I remember quite well thanks. I apologized to you, because that's the kind of person I am. I don't like to keep things bottled up, and sometimes I regret the statements I make. Not because of the statement, but because I felt like I was attacking you personally. But since you do it to me, and everyone else who doesn't agree with you, I changed my mind.
You mean the way you attack anyone who isn’t an atheist like you, which is the whole subject line of this thread?
And this post IS about religion. Always the little pot dig ay? It just kills you that I don't match up to your stereotype doesn't it?
Oh, you match up to it very nicely, Steve. You’re selfish, obnoxious, stupid, resentful, bitter, a criminal, and far too easily accept completely jingoistic horseshit if it appears to confirm your feelings. The 809 million death toll is a case in point.
You, on the other hand, have been wrong about me from day one. I was not raised as a Catholic. I am not a cop, nor a Tory plant. You and Oog and Co. were even wrong about the country I lived in. Your powers of deduction and cognition really are that shitty.
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2010-06-16 9:37:46 PM
That's interesting history, Kassim, but what matters is how the actual historical communists actually turned out. Although it's titillating to speculate how communist history might have been difference had they been Christian (certain Christian philosophies do superficially resemble communism after all), it would be just that: speculation.
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2010-06-16 9:41:23 PM
Kassam, that is interesting. I don't mind though. Some Christians have predicted the end of the world many times. Yet my faith is no less because of these nuts. Some Christians believe in communal living and in fact live that way today. I have no problem with this either as they do not force it upon me.
Anyway, I am a Christian Libertarian and seek to force neither of these on anyone. I suspect I am not the only one who thinks this way.
Posted by: TM | 2010-06-16 9:57:08 PM
Talk about hyperbole and complete undocumented rubbish! Christian honour killings, give us a break Mike! And the attempt to disassociate communism from atheist is pathetic to say the least. The fact is there is only one religion to-day that practises honour killings and the murder of anyone who does not share their ideology, so please be honest enough to recognise it. If you insist otherwise, then present the evidence.
The problem is NOT religion. The problem is when people insist on imposing their beliefs and ideology on everyone else, which clearly includes Mike.
Posted by: Alain | 2010-06-16 10:00:29 PM
Alain,
How is atheism and communism intrinsically linked? Explain.
Posted by: Mike Brock | 2010-06-16 10:07:41 PM
How is atheism and communism intrinsically linked?
"How are atheism and communism intrinsically linked," not "is." Theoretically, one does not require the other. Historically, however, that's exactly what happened. Lenin and Stalin went so far as to topple churches, melt down precious ikons for their gold, and massacre untold thousands of Russian clergy.
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2010-06-16 10:50:28 PM
Historically, atheism has not led to communism. Just because communism espouses atheism does not imply the inverse. That is a tautology, specifically known as affirming the consequent.
Communism leads to atheism, therefore, atheism leads to communism.
-or-
Eating carcinogens leads to cancer, therefore, cancer leads to eating carcinogens.
Posted by: Mike Brock | 2010-06-16 11:00:32 PM
Tsk tsk, still skipping over your gods genocide, I see. Which according to your stories could possibly have been in the billions.
WW2 - religion played a major part of the deaths in that war.
WW1 - see above.
Mongol Conquests - ruler believed he was a god, was referred to as the "heavenly Khagan". Religious war.
An Shi rebellion - numbers are questionable, due to the breakdown of the census system and the period of time it raged over. Besides, the Chinese where very religious in those days.
Taiping rebellion - lead by christian convert Hong Xiuquan. Who founded the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.
Tamerlane - In religion as in other aspects of his life Timur was above all an opportunist; his religion served frequently to further his aims, but almost never to curcumscribe his actions. It was in the justification of his rule and his conquests that Timur found Islam most useful.
Panthay Rebellion - Separatist alright. As in separate muslim heads from their bodies.
In short, anyone who has committed genocide has probably had inclinations of being god-like.
"809 million, huh?"
Who knows, its not like we have census information from these ages. The census info we have now is suspect. But there can be no denying that religion is a major player in wars. But lets not forget all the martyrs, heretics, witches, homosexuals, and everyone else religion hates, except the martyrs, but who died none the less because of religion.
"(There have been no religious wars of any significance in the last several centuries)."
The present war is all about religion. And we saw some gems like the Iraq-Iran war, the Chinese civil war, Vietnam, and so on. Just about all had religious elements. Although the 19th century was relatively peaceful, this was because of the industrial revolution and the rejection of religious violence and the creation of states that separated politics and religion . But before that, religious death ruled the land.
"Stalin was. Mao was. Pol Pot was. All communists were. And Hitler’s non-atheism is simply your opinion. Which is what your entire screed boils down to."
We already put to bed your Communist crying. Please read previous posts. How is it my opinion? Then by that logic, your claim is merely your opinion. Which is what your entire religion boils down to.
No, I can’t, because Hitler was interested in purifying an Aryan race. It was the genetic and ethnic heritage of the Jews Hitler sought to expunge from Germany, not their religion. That's why he targeted Gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals, and other “undesirables” as well, most of whom were Christians. Sorry, no dice.
Bullcrap. That's just a theory. Historians are still arguing about why Hitler hated Jews. There are many possibilities.
"So the next time you start bemoaning the death toll from genocides and massacres by charismatic leaders, reflect on how much of it was the fault of people like you,"
Really? How is it my fault? You’re the follower, not me.
Posted by: Steve Bottrell | 2010-06-16 11:09:51 PM
"It’s called a “reminder,” actually. And by popular accord, the one who should be ashamed is you."
No its called "whining" And by popular accord where? Your house?
"You mean the way you attack anyone who isn’t an atheist like you, which is the whole subject line of this thread?"
Prove god exists, and I'll shut up.
"Oh, you match up to it very nicely, Steve. You’re selfish, obnoxious, stupid, resentful, bitter, a criminal, and far too easily accept completely jingoistic horseshit if it appears to confirm your feelings. The 809 million death toll is a case in point."
And your a self inflated, pedantic, pompous ass who far too easily accepts completely unprovable horseshit. God is a case in point.
"You, on the other hand, have been wrong about me from day one. I was not raised as a Catholic. I am not a cop, nor a Tory plant. You and Oog and Co. were even wrong about the country I lived in. Your powers of deduction and cognition really are that shitty."
Never said you where a cop, or a Tory plant, and I even defended you when Oog claimed you where an American. The Catholic thing I'll give you. Your ability to hold a civil discourse is really that shitty. I'd probably be beating your fat ass by now if you talked like this in front of me.
Posted by: Steve Bottrell | 2010-06-16 11:21:54 PM
Historically, atheism has not led to communism. Just because communism espouses atheism does not imply the inverse.
And who said they did? That's a connection you made, and then only so you could disprove it.
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2010-06-16 11:27:26 PM
My wise ol pappy once told me never to argue with any one about religion because belief is ingrained and values are inherent. You will never change another persons mind.
Judging by the temperment in some of the posts, he was correct.
Going back to the original post, that is the joy of a multicultural society where there is no obligation to the host country and we bend over backwards to accomodate all beliefs. What does it mean to be Canadian ??. 50 years ago the answer was clear.
Now no one knows. Just another failed experiment.
Posted by: peterj | 2010-06-16 11:30:31 PM
Tsk tsk, still skipping over your gods genocide, I see. Which according to your stories could possibly have been in the billions.
***************. The world population at the estimated time of the Flood was about 150 million. So unless there were a couple dozen Deluges...
WW2 - religion played a major part of the deaths in that war. WW1 - see above. Mongol conquests...ruler believed he was a god...Chinese were very religious in those days...blah, blah, blah...
You have not proven any of this because you can’t. You just choose to believe it because you will believe anything that appears to confirm prejudices you already hold. You have not provided one iota of proof for any of your claims. There really is no limit to how slender a straw you will grasp at, is there? ********************
In short, anyone who has committed genocide has probably had inclinations of being god-like.
That’s it? That’s your proof for “billions” of religiously motivated deaths? “Probably had inclinations”? Do you have any idea how *************** this makes you look?
Who knows, its not like we have census information from these ages...
If you don’t know, why are you claiming such a precise figure: 809 million? Or is it “billions” now? You’re just backtracking because there are reliable estimates of which you were not aware (because you did not bother to check), so like a *************, you try to create reasonable doubt. There’s another ***********************.
But there can be no denying that religion is a major player in wars.
But that’s not what you said. You said these wars were religiously motivated, and that the death toll was 809 million. I’m still waiting for solid proof, not feverish ravings.
But lets not forget all the martyrs, heretics, witches, homosexuals, and everyone else religion hates, except the martyrs, but who died none the less because of religion.
Righto. And let’s not forget all the people who were wiped out owing to intolerance of precisely the brand you and ***** have spent the evening staining the pages of the Shotgun with. You two have a lot more in common with Hitler than I do. And ***** is a *************** in the bargain.
The present war is all about religion.
No, it’s about oil. And the situation in Palestine is about land. Jews and Muslims coexisted peacefully for centuries before 1948.
And we saw some gems like the Iraq-Iran war...
Post-colonial revolutionaries shrugging off what they saw (with some justification) as Western puppet governments.
...The Chinese civil war...
Communists versus capitalists.
...Vietnam...
Proxy war between the US and USSR; communists versus capitalists.
Just about all had religious elements.
Just about none did. And those that used religion as a tool, were not about religion; it was just one more card in the propagandist’s deck.
Although the 19th century was relatively peaceful, this was because of the industrial revolution and the rejection of religious violence and the creation of states that separated politics and religion.
“Relatively”? Dozens of wars were fought in the 19th century, including the war in which the U.S. lost more soldiers than in all the rest of its wars combined, including World War II. And the 19th century began to see the advent of truly catastrophic numbers of dead, because the heavy machinery, rapid-fire weapons, and fast troop movements the Industrial Revolution made possible made for extremely bloody conflicts. Where do you pick up this fiction, Steve?
But before that, religious death ruled the land.
The French Revolution was one of the bloodiest interludes in French history and it was not religious. They even beheaded the statues of kings on Notre Dame Cathedral, removed its rose window (it has since been restored), and renamed it “The Temple of Reason.”
We already put to bed your Communist crying.
“We”? You two have put nothing to bed. You’re just splitting increasingly fine hairs because, once again, you allowed your emotions to run away with you, and now you look like a pair of raving lunatics.
How is it my opinion? Then by that logic, your claim is merely your opinion. Which is what your entire religion boils down to.
It is your opinion because you have not proven any of it. You can’t. The numbers aren’t there. I have proven my point of view, which is not only mine, but that of historians and other folks who can read (and write).
Bullcrap. That's just a theory. Historians are still arguing about why Hitler hated Jews. There are many possibilities.
Theory my ass. Eugenics was well-established in scientific circles in the 1930s and Hitler’s dreams of a thousand-year Reich headed by a pure Aryan race are well-attested history. Why don’t you take the next step and deny the Holocaust ever happened at all, Steve?
Really? How is it my fault? You’re the follower, not me.
Said the tireless pedlar of the Venus Project. I don’t push my religion in these pages. But you sure do push yours. ******** takes it a step further, trying to crush all competitors in the name of purity. Gee, who does that sound like?
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2010-06-16 11:47:33 PM
No its called "whining"
Your *****************, Steve. You’re the one telling me I should be ashamed because I reminded you of something you did, and you accuse me of whining? It is to laugh.
And by popular accord where? Your house?
How quickly we forget. Several guys told you you were going over the top. Thought you said you remembered it all.
Prove god exists, and I'll shut up.
No, you’ll just dismiss it as a theory. By the way, thanks for admitting that you attack anyone who isn’t an atheist like you. ***************.
And your a self inflated, pedantic, pompous ass who far too easily accepts completely unprovable horseshit. God is a case in point.
None of which disproves the points I raised about you, which are accurate, or erases the fact that your assumptions about me were inaccurate. ****************.
Never said you where a cop, or a Tory plant, and I even defended you when Oog claimed you where an American. The Catholic thing I'll give you.
No, you told Oog that what he was doing was a recipe for trouble (as did damned near everybody except the ************** who was supposed to be running the thread). That’s not the same thing as disagreeing with him that I was American.
Your ability to hold a civil discourse is really that shitty.
Say what, “************* Catholics” who murdered, what is it now, “billions”?
I'd probably be beating your fat ass by now if you talked like this in front of me.
And I’d probably be trussing you up like a turkey and hanging you by the thumbs from the rafters for the cops to collect if you tried it, Steve. But atheists are more peaceful than Catholics, you bet.
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2010-06-16 11:57:23 PM
Shane,
If you would like to continue posting, I suggest you cut back on the abusive language. If you can't tell, I'm not tolerating it. I don't care what you post on my threads as long as it's not comprised of personal insults.
You can avoid having your comments deleted and redacted by sticking to arguments that do not take the form of ad hominem.
Referring to myself or others as having a "criminal mentality" for instance will result in comment deletion or redaction.
If you fail to get the message, I will ban all your postings permanently.
Also, this policy is not up for debate either, and commenting on it in this thread will get your messages deleted as well. The reposting of deleted messages will not be tolerated.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Posted by: Mike Brock | 2010-06-17 12:21:11 AM
A Puritanical Prohibitionist continually posits negatively on Toranna.
Given the CRAP'ers funding of @ 2.5 Million $$ on a fake lake in the Toranna area, about as real as Harpo's Hair, one would think that the CRAPer/ Puritanical Prohibitionist would be grateful for hard working Canadian Taxpayer $$ funding that particular CRAPer boondoggle.
Can you feel the CRAPer Rapture?
Posted by: jeff franklin | 2010-06-17 8:17:41 AM
Wow ... this thread is rather something.
I think peterj is right, religious debates are normally quite useless. I figure as long as the religious practices in question are not distasteful, probably best to stay away from the whole topic.
I won't stay away from this topic, however. The murder of an innocent girl which can directly be tied to religious beliefs needs to be addressed. In this case, the incident was related to one family's interpretation of Islam. I tend to prefer analyzing individual situations and don't find it particularly constructive to bring all Muslims and especially Christianity into this.
Posted by: Charles | 2010-06-17 8:43:35 AM
Charles,
I agree that people need to be judged individually. If I didn't, I would automatically hate most of my friends and family. However, I will not shy away from attacking religion itself.
If people are personally insulted by me attacking their religion , there is nothing I can do about that. But religion pervades public life. It's existence is the number one force against the creation andn preservation of human knowledge.
Be it governments targeting gay pride events specifically for removal of funding. Or people demanding evolution not be taught to their children. Or the demand that abortion specifically not be publicly funded.
I don't accept the underlying arguments against such things, not simply because I hold a different opinion. But because I don't believe an invisible man in the sky story that creates the basis for them.
This is the trap that people like you try to back me into. You want me to avoid religion, and argue on individual issues by their merit. But if the individual issue is religious in nature, the logical thing is to attack the basis of the thinking.
We don't just argue with socialists about the merits of wealth redistribution. We argue with them about the merits of collectivism.
Why would I argue with religious people about the legality of abortion, but not address their biblical or quoranic basis for those arguments?
Why is religion so "special"? It's not. It's just another set of ideas. A set of ideas that this anti -theist feels is open to attack just as much as secular ideologies of collectivism are
Posted by: Mike Brock | 2010-06-17 9:02:25 AM
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