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Friday, April 03, 2009

'Progressives' want to silence so-con parents

Does advancement of a "progressive" agenda in public schools necessarily mean that socially-conservative parents must be silenced? A Fraser Valley professor, Martha Dow, thinks so, and she's probably right. [I'd like to link you to the Xtra West story on her comments, but it now appears to be offline.] Of course, that doesn't mean that I believe a progessive agenda should be taught, but it does mean that I understand that for one philosophical view to become dominant, the opposing one must inevitably suffer.

I look at the implications of Prof. Dow's comments in my side of this week's Face to Face debate in the Tri-City News. For her part, my debating opponent, Mary Woo Sims, takes a "don't worry, be happy" approach to the whole affair.

Posted by Terry O'Neill on April 3, 2009 in Current Affairs | Permalink

Comments

I suggest that the problem exists due to having allowed education to be replaced with indoctrination. If the schools returned (not likely unless forced) to educating children instead of indoctrinating them in the latest fashion of the day, there could be no conflict from either side.

Posted by: Alain | 2009-04-03 8:17:48 PM


Our schools are in the process of dumbing down our children in order that they be compliant socialist sheep. If we are to remain (return to) a free people, we'll have to educate our children...ourselves!

Posted by: JC | 2009-04-03 8:40:54 PM


Thanks for using quotes around that odious term "progressive". Most of those miscreants are not progressive, but highly regressive.

Posted by: Werner Patels | 2009-04-03 9:38:38 PM


So long as "so-con" is a code word for "bigot", then it is good to silence the so-con parents. It is a good thing for schools to teach that racism is morally offensive. KKK parents have no grounds for complaint. It is a good thing for schools to teach that anti-semitism is morally offensive. Nazi parents have no grounds for complaint. It is a good thing for schools to teach that homophobia is morally offensive. "So-con" parents have no grounds for complaint.

Posted by: Fact Check | 2009-04-04 5:57:25 AM


Socially Conservative is NOT a code word for Bigot.
Unless of course you are "Fact Check". This is the sort of ignorant attitude that is only promulgated by people "labeling" others so as to feel morally superior. And actually it only helps us to identify the real Bigots out there. The "Labelers".
Schools are indoctrination camps...even my kids and their friends say so.

Posted by: JC | 2009-04-04 7:13:28 AM


JC,

"Schools are indoctrination camps...even my kids and their friends say so."

Well! There's an authority on schools if there ever was one! LOL!

Posted by: Fact Check | 2009-04-04 7:43:26 AM


FC, try a little honesty for a change. JC is correct that schools are indoctrination camps, and in fact you confirm your support by stating that schools are to teach that "racism" or anti-Semitism is bad. That is another example of indoctrination. The role of education is not to indoctrinate nor impart values or morals; that is the role of the parents. Education is supposed to be about learning skills for life and acquiring knowledge; and above all learning critical thinking. Their only other role should be to ensure that students are able to do this in a safe environment.

Posted by: Alain | 2009-04-04 11:05:29 AM


In BC, teachers are generally either union-activist, left-lib NDP drones or outcasts who have to silently tolerate the goose-stepping PC jackboots. If they don't embrace gay advocacy masquerading as enlightened tolerant curriculum they must be "homophobic Christians". I'll bet if Muslims were protesting curriculum it would change.

Posted by: John Chittick | 2009-04-04 11:47:46 AM


Alain,

"The role of education is not to indoctrinate nor impart values or morals; that is the role of the parents. Education is supposed to be about learning skills for life and acquiring knowledge; and above all learning critical thinking. Their only other role should be to ensure that students are able to do this in a safe environment."

So I should put you down as in favour of a curriculum that says "some people say that there is a world-wide Jewish conspiracy to control financial insitutions and governments to the detriment of all other people. Others disagree. You decide." I suppose you also are in favour of teaching "some people say the Holocaust happened. Others say it is a lie made up by Jews and their supporters to gain sympathy. You decide." What a wonderful school system you would have for us!

Posted by: Fact Check | 2009-04-04 11:49:03 AM


Alain, you are correct. Fact Check makes some good points, but in the end, our kids will be indoctrinated by someone. That will either be the parents, or it will be some institution like the school system. It scares me to think we could trust the state with this. As wrong as some people are, in my opinion, about their beliefs or morals, the potential social harm from their indoctrination is the lesser of two evils.

Posted by: TM | 2009-04-04 12:06:33 PM


I suggest that the problem exists due to having allowed education to be replaced with indoctrination. If the schools returned (not likely unless forced) to educating children instead of indoctrinating them in the latest fashion of the day, there could be no conflict from either side.
Posted by: Alain | 2009-04-03 8:17:48 PM

Sounds like a great argument for school choice. A little competition could solve a lot of the problems you listed as well as the ones addressed in the post.

Posted by: Janet | 2009-04-04 12:38:56 PM


FC, again wrong! The claim of a world wide Jewish plot to control the economy or anything is not about education; therefore it has no place in schools. The same applies to Holocaust deniers. Teach history and leave it to the students to form their own opinions. Anything else remains indoctrination.

Posted by: Alain | 2009-04-04 1:21:18 PM


Alain,

You are a fool. How do you suppose that schools can teach about WWII without explaining the anti-semitism of the Nazis? Or without addressing whether or not the Holocaust happened during the war? The topics must be discussed, so your advice of "leave it to the students to form their own opinions" is to tell them that some say these things are true, some say they are false and let the kids decide for themselves. That is idiotic (and evil).

Posted by: Fact Check | 2009-04-04 1:30:01 PM


Fact Check, it seems you are suggesting that the state's ideas of what should be taught should prevail. Do you see no danger in that?

Posted by: TM | 2009-04-04 1:36:48 PM


FC just cannot grasp the concept of no state indoctrination nor what education should be.

In history students are expected to learn historical facts. One of those facts is the Nazi program for the extermination of the Jews along with quiet a few others. This is not about opinion but documented facts. As for the anti-Semitism let us not forget it was a product of government indoctrination. I would also point out that anti-Semitism was not the only evil of the Nazis. The role of teachers however is not to police what students think or try to control their thoughts.

I think most people here understand the difference between education and indoctrination, so I shall not belabour it any longer.

Posted by: Alain | 2009-04-04 2:03:53 PM


Fact Check, socially conservative parents(and their beliefs) have as much right to be heard in public education as the left. The last time I looked socially conservative parents are taxed for public school expenses. The goal of education should be for the children to learn certain life skills(math, science, languages, history, etc.) Any school worth its salt should give equal time to the opposing sides of an issue and leave it for the student is select which way they tilt. It is not the schools job to tell the kid what to think. The problem with too many schools is that we are graduating students who have been insufficently trained for the outside world. We have high school graduates who can't do simple multiplication or long division without a calculator. In my day, we were drilled on the times tables in 1st or 2nd grade. Also, there are too many students whose reading skills are abysmal. My advice is simple. Knock off the political correctness and multicultural bull. Go back to the fundamentals(reading, writing, and arithmetic). Let's get those test scores up sharply before you concern yourself with indoctrinating a captive audience(impressionable youths) in left-wing ideology.
P.S. Factcheck, opposition to gay marriage does not make someone homophobic. Opposition to abortion does not make you anti-woman. For example, I support the death penalty and feel like most Americans that not enough executions are carried out. However, according to your line of thought, I could imply that opponents of capital punishment are pro-criminal. If you don't execute the murderer then aren't you giving him a lighter sentence(definitely a lighter sentence then his victim)?

Posted by: David | 2009-04-04 3:22:30 PM


TM,

"Fact Check, it seems you are suggesting that the state's ideas of what should be taught should prevail."

Nonsense! I have only suggested that teaching that bigoted beliefs - whether anti-semitic, racist, or homophobic - are wrong is a good idea. If "the state" agrees that it is a good idea, then good! If "the state" disagrees with this idea, then it is wrong. I also think teaching basic literacy and numeracy is a good idea, regardless of whether "the state" does. In fact nothing I wrote is an endorsement of the "do whatever 'the state' wants" thinking you describe.


Alain,

"In history students are expected to learn historical facts. One of those facts is the Nazi program for the extermination of the Jews along with quiet a few others. This is not about opinion but documented facts."

Excellent! So when schools are teaching kids about the Holocaust, they should be careful not to say anything that suggests either that it was a good or a bad thing and if little Johnny says "I'm glad they fried them Jews!" the teacher should say only correct his grammar, and nothing more. No opinions from teachers, just facts! What brave new schools!

But it also follows from your view that when schools are teaching about diversity in the community, it is ok for schools to teach some people have two mommies that love them as well as each other and that for some kids daddy's roomate is his lover. These are facts and the schools should be careful to say nothing that would suggest condemnation of these relationships, since schools should not get into opinion. So your view is not all bad.

Posted by: Fact Check | 2009-04-04 3:33:30 PM


FC, your muddled thinking is astounding. Education does not including "teaching about diversity in the community". I happen to have once been a teacher and have a good understanding of the difference between education and indoctrination, something you lack.

Posted by: Alain | 2009-04-04 3:52:20 PM


David,

"The last time I looked socially conservative parents are taxed for public school expenses."

Yes, and people whi think Jews are worthless scum and that it's too bad the Nazis didn't get them all also pay those taxes. So do people who like to wear whit sheets in their spare time and think non-whites are inherintly inferior. That does not entitle their views to be taught.

"Any school worth its salt should give equal time to the opposing sides of an issue and leave it for the student is select which way they tilt."

Like the neo-Nazi and KKK views? I don't think so. The views of bigots are legitimately excluded.

Posted by: Fact Check | 2009-04-04 3:55:57 PM


FC, I said it seems to you that the state's ideas should prevail. You said "Nonsense! I have only suggested that teaching that bigoted beliefs - whether anti-semitic, racist, or homophobic - are wrong is a good idea. If "the state" agrees that it is a good idea, then good! If "the state" disagrees with this idea, then it is wrong."

Is that not the state's views prevailing?

I think your concern with antisemitism and homophobia are blinding you to bigger threat. The state is the only entity allowed to use the threat of violence to get its way. If you look at history, my guess is you will see more harm done to Jews and gays by the state than any other person or group or entity.

Posted by: TM | 2009-04-04 4:53:41 PM


FC is obviously focused on the holocaust and perhaps its a sore point for him/her...
That's too bad. And it was an awful part of history, genocide always is. But if its to be taught in schools lets include the boxer rebellion and Stalin's great purge...after all the Jews weren't alone as genocide victims.
And yes the state is busy educating students to ends which are good for "the state". So I guess if we can call socons...Bigots...we can call progressives...communists. Because that's what our "state" is becoming.

Posted by: JC | 2009-04-04 5:32:35 PM


Well! There's an authority on schools if there ever was one! LOL!

Posted by: Fact Check | 2009-04-04 7:43:26 AM

Kind of like the chattering monkey in the tree aren't you?
When the kids themselves can see how phony the education sysytem is, its time to take note.
Or laugh like a moron....you're choice I suppose.

Posted by: JC | 2009-04-04 6:20:48 PM


We have among us people, who like the communists, believe in the re-education (indoctrination) of people, in particular children. Human beings however are not blank slates that can be programmed with selected ideologies, as the truth of communist regimes has shown. They may learn to guard their thoughts from the thought police for their own survival. The Left, like the communists, cannot grasp this bit of reality and therefore support the idea of schools remaining places of indoctrination instead of education. The simple fact is that you cannot by decree force everyone to love everyone.

JC is spot on concerning history. To teach the documented facts of the millions of victims of communism and other totalitarian regimes along with the Jewish Holocaust does not belittle the Holocaust. It shows the danger of absolute state power and what invariably happens when free people are reduced to serfs.

Posted by: Alain | 2009-04-05 11:23:16 AM


It shows the danger of absolute state power and what invariably happens when free people are reduced to serfs.

Posted by: Alain | 2009-04-05 11:23:16 AM

Exactly. Teach children the dangerous results of "engineering society" under totalitarion regimes. And teach them to hunt too. ;)

Posted by: JC | 2009-04-05 3:32:29 PM


When Logic Chopper isn't pettyfogging, he is merely obfuscating.

There are straw men on the Left, too. Why don't you flog some of those dead horses for a change?

Posted by: Grant Brown | 2009-04-06 12:58:23 AM


I actually get pretty pissed off when the schools start making overly graphic sexual eductaion presentations to my kids. I kept them out of the class when they were in grade 5 and 6 but even now I find that they are much too graphic when teaching it to my 12 and 13 year old daughters. What's worse is they teach it in a co-ed environment, so that even the embarassment levels kids might feel when contemplating sex are reduced. What need is there for my 12 and 13 year old girls to sit in a classroom full of teenage boys and learn the finer points of masturbation and ejaculation?

I have similar problems with the schools having cops come in to teach the kids about drugs. Cops are not teachers, not drug experts, they are law experts. Having a cop come in to teach a health class is ridiculous. I say why not bring in a doctor, a nurse, a pharmacist, a forensic pathologist, almost anyone in the health industry is more qualified to educate kids about drugs and their effects than a cop is.

I too would like to see the schools stay away from teaching morals and opinions and get back to properly teaching the essentials of reading writing and arithmatic.

Posted by: DrGreenthumb | 2009-04-08 11:15:07 AM



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