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Monday, August 11, 2008

Russian distortions, advances, and perhaps a motive?

The Spectator Coffeehouse (UK) relays a link from the Moscow Times revealing what Russia will do to cover-up the truth:

"Russian television is flush with footage of misery left by the Georgian assault in the separatist district of South Ossetia, but few, if any, reports mention Russia’s bombing of Georgia.

William Dunbar, a correspondent in Georgia for English-language state channel Russia Today, mentioned the bombing in a report Saturday, and he has not gone on air for the station since."

I’ll say this for Putinist Russia, it has quite the rapid response team!

Coffeehouse blogger James Forsyth may have also stumbled across the “nub” of the story - as they say across the pond (emphasis added):

"But this fighting was started at Russia’s urging and is being expanded by Moscow at every opportunity. Indeed, there is even talk in security circles that the Russians launched this assault to derail the progress the German government was making towards mediating a settlement in the more strategically vital region of Abkhazia."

Had a settlement on Abkhazia become reality, there may have been momentum for one is South Ossetia as well, removing any opportunity Russia had to do to Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili what they did to the last anti-Communist leader of Georgia (Zviad Gamsakhurdia).  Putin couldn’t afford to let that happen.

Meanwhile, Russia continues to take the fight well into what universally acknowledged as Georgia proper (Washington Post):

"GORI, Georgia, Aug. 11 — Russian forces continued airstrikes against targets in this central Georgian city Monday as Moscow’s troops moved deeper into Georgian territory around the western town of Senaki.

The airstrikes and ground movements came despite an announcement by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev Monday that military operations in Georgia are almost complete.

The Georgian government, meanwhile, said its army was retreating to defend the capital, Tbilisi, and called for international help to prevent Russia from taking over the country."

Will Russia be allowed to reverse the Rose Revolution?

Cross-posted to the right-wing liberal

Posted by D.J. McGuire on August 11, 2008 in International Politics | Permalink

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Comments

The Russians have been planning this for quite some time.

Posted by: Faramir | 2008-08-11 1:19:44 PM


The 700 year old imperialist tradition continues. Soon South Ossetia and Abkhazia will be Russian provinces, and a Russian puppet will be inserted as Georgian leader.

The West will do nothing, except issue some statements. (The EU never does anything, and the US will not do anything now with a lame duck president. And the UN we can of course forget totally.)

Posted by: Johan i Kanada | 2008-08-11 1:41:07 PM


I love all this armchair coaching / analysing that goes on in Forums on the net.

The groups basically fall in two categories:

1. People like D.J. who are so blinded by their own ideologie that they cannot see even a little bit beyond it.

2. Idealogues on the other side of the debate.

In between there are a handful of people who try to sort of see the two sides and try to come to a differentiated picture.

The Western Media of course play's it's part. I had close to 50 years to "paint Ivan Red" and I guess old habits die hard, even after more than a decade of it not quite fitting anymore.

Almost too funny.

Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-08-11 2:13:39 PM


Snowrunner is so predictable. What is remarkable is that no matter what the decade we always have the Russian carpetbaggers among us.

Posted by: Faramir | 2008-08-11 2:34:33 PM


Snowrunner is so predictable. What is remarkable is that no matter what the decade we always have the Russian carpetbaggers among us.

Posted by: Faramir | 11-Aug-08 2:34:33 PM

What is even more remarkable is how we never seem to be able to get rid of idealogues who put their own believes above everything else and are more than will to send others to kill and be killed for their view of the world.

Just imagine the world would try and seek dialogue instead of guns and ammo.... Ah no, people like Faramir and their ignorance and ideology will prevent that from ever happening.

Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-08-11 2:43:09 PM


I see you have a Putin lover here. I wonder if it is being paid or if it truly loves its idol.

Posted by: dave | 2008-08-11 3:01:41 PM


I see you have a Putin lover here. I wonder if it is being paid or if it truly loves its idol.

Posted by: dave | 11-Aug-08 3:01:41 PM

Trying to piss at my leg there little doggie? It's okay, your Masters have told you to bark and you bark. If you're wag your tail hard enough they may even give you a treat.

Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-08-11 3:37:29 PM


"The Spectator Coffeehouse (UK) relays a link from the Moscow Times revealing what Russia will do to cover-up the truth"

"Georgia truthers"

Posted by: Marc | 2008-08-11 3:58:46 PM


Snowey, are you for real? Do you ever listen to yourself? To accuse others of being blinded by their ideology is a hoot.

Posted by: Alain | 2008-08-11 4:04:57 PM


I think he is paid.

In any case it is remarkable that the editors here are so against holding Russian feet to the fire, but get all bent out of shape about the ChiComs.

Posted by: Faramir | 2008-08-11 4:10:47 PM


Smedley Butler: War is a Racket!

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."[21]

"For past seven years, Israeli companies have been helping Georgian army to prepare for war against Russia through arms deals, training of infantry units and security advice...

Israel began selling arms to Georgia about seven years ago following an initiative by Georgian citizens who immigrated to Israel and became businesspeople.


"They contacted defense industry officials and arms dealers and told them that Georgia had relatively large budgets and could be interested in purchasing Israeli weapons," says a source involved in arms exports.


The military cooperation between the countries developed swiftly. The fact that Georgia's defense minister, Davit Kezerashvili, is a former Israeli who is fluent in Hebrew contributed to this cooperation.


"His door was always open to the Israelis who came and offered his country arms systems made in Israel," the source said. "Compared to countries in Eastern Europe, the deals in this country were conducted fast, mainly due to the defense minister's personal involvement."


Among the Israelis who took advantage of the opportunity and began doing business in Georgia were former Minister Roni Milo and his brother Shlomo, former director-general of the Military Industries, Brigadier-General (Res.) Gal Hirsch and Major-General (Res.) Yisrael Ziv.


Roni Milo conducted business in Georgia for Elbit Systems and the Military Industries, and with his help Israel's defense industries managed to sell to Georgia remote-piloted vehicles (RPVs), automatic turrets for armored vehicles, antiaircraft systems, communication systems, shells and rockets.


According to Israeli sources, Gal Hirsch gave the Georgian army advice on the establishment of elite units such as Sayeret Matkal and on rearmament, and gave various courses in the fields of combat intelligence and fighting in built-up areas.

Georgian minister: Israel should be proud

"The Israelis should be proud of themselves for the Israeli training and education received by the Georgian soldiers," Georgian Minister Temur Yakobashvili said Saturday.

Yakobashvili is a Jew and is fluent in Hebrew. "We are now in a fight against the great Russia," he said, "and our hope is to receive assistance from the White House, because Georgia cannot survive on its own.

"It's important that the entire world understands that what is happening in Georgia now will affect the entire world order. It's not just Georgia's business, but the entire world's business."

Priceless

Posted by: DJ | 2008-08-11 6:02:47 PM


What's clear hear is the Russian press is nothing more than a propaganda machine. Most Russians are actually outraged because they think Georgia has committed acts of genocide. Meanwhile, Russia - a nation with a government who controlled the electoral process to "win" elections - has invaded a truly democratic nation. Let's not forget Chamberlain.

Posted by: dave | 2008-08-11 6:07:34 PM


And yes, any country that helped defend Georgia should be proud. In addition to Israel, let's not forget the Ukraine - who just announced Russia's black fleet is not welcome back in their ports due to the aggression in Georgia proper.

Posted by: dave | 2008-08-11 6:10:01 PM


Did anyone notice that Russian aircraft still bear the Red Star, like they did during Soviet times.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

There's an apocryphal story of an East German tank commander in Prague 1968. He opened his hatch and said "We're back" - referring to the Nazi occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1939.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2008-08-11 6:19:02 PM


Couldn't resist, could you DJ. Whatever the topic you can always be counted on to blame the Jews, and if you cannot find any then it is the non whites.

Posted by: Alain | 2008-08-11 6:34:28 PM


Snowey, are you for real? Do you ever listen to yourself? To accuse others of being blinded by their ideology is a hoot.

Posted by: Alain | 11-Aug-08 4:04:57 PM

Why don't you quote my ideology? Apparently it's "evident" everywhere.

Go on, quote something, I prefer complete paragraphs, just so that people can see the context, even though you most likely won't get it anyway.

Good luck.

Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-08-11 9:11:01 PM


What's clear hear is the Russian press is nothing more than a propaganda machine. Most Russians are actually outraged because they think Georgia has committed acts of genocide. Meanwhile, Russia - a nation with a government who controlled the electoral process to "win" elections - has invaded a truly democratic nation. Let's not forget Chamberlain.

Posted by: dave | 11-Aug-08 6:07:34 PM

What's clear hear is the Western press is nothing more than a propaganda machine. Most people in the West are actually outraged because they think Saddam has masterminded 9/11 and has Weapons of Mass Destruction. Meanwhile, the United States - a nation with a government who used the courts to influence the electoral process to "win" elections - has repeatedly supported dictators and sent people to far away places to get the tortured. Let's not forget Chamberlain.

--------------------

See how easy it is? Just change a few words and suddenly it's no longer black and white.

Not that you or anybody else on here will get it.

Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-08-11 9:14:46 PM


And yes, any country that helped defend Georgia should be proud. In addition to Israel, let's not forget the Ukraine - who just announced Russia's black fleet is not welcome back in their ports due to the aggression in Georgia proper.

Posted by: dave | 11-Aug-08 6:10:01 PM

Oh? They have closed down Sewastopol for the Russian fleet? Kicked them all out? Got a link?

Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-08-11 9:15:48 PM


Snowy,
"See how easy it is? Just change a few words and suddenly it's no longer black and white."

No fair. That's my approach when trying to get you to wake up and smell your own ideology.

I guess imitation really is the sincerest form of flattery.

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2008-08-11 9:24:28 PM


Snowy- the western press is not a propaganda machine, but the bush admin was - HUGE difference. Don't think so? Watch our ELECTIONS.

Posted by: dave | 2008-08-11 9:41:58 PM


No fair. That's my approach when trying to get you to wake up and smell your own ideology.

I guess imitation really is the sincerest form of flattery.

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 11-Aug-08 9:24:28 PM

Yeah, but self flattery stinks.

And, what is my ideology again? Please, do tell.

Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-08-11 9:53:59 PM


Snowy- the western press is not a propaganda machine, but the bush admin was - HUGE difference. Don't think so? Watch our ELECTIONS.

Posted by: dave | 11-Aug-08 9:41:58 PM

Uhuu, I guess that is still why a majority of Americans think that Saddam was behind 9/11. Guess the "non propaganda" machine just didn't get around yet (close to seven years after the fact) to "correct" that perception that the Bush administration gave.

Get real. There are only a handful of organizations that are controlling the majority of the news. Propaganda, pardon, the Press doesn't need to be State owned to do Propaganda.

Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-08-11 9:55:29 PM


Actually Snowy, in Sept of '04 it was 35%. But nonetheless, Iraq was no Georgia. How can a vast majority of Russians possibly believe their government? It's easy to trust in a democracy, but in Putinistan?!?

Posted by: dave | 2008-08-11 10:23:36 PM


Snowy,

"And, what is my ideology again? Please, do tell."

I've been trying to tell you for two years. Your ideology is your belief that you are above ideology. Everyone else is wrong and/or bigoted and/or blinded except you and the causes you support.

Haven't you figured that out yet?

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2008-08-11 10:56:09 PM


It's easy to trust in a democracy, but in Putinistan?!?

Posted by: dave | 11-Aug-08 10:23:36 PM

that's nice. Too bad that democracies lie as much as dictatorships. The difference: In a Dictatorship people know they are being lied to.

Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-08-11 11:01:53 PM


I've been trying to tell you for two years. Your ideology is your belief that you are above ideology. Everyone else is wrong and/or bigoted and/or blinded except you and the causes you support.

Haven't you figured that out yet?

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 11-Aug-08 10:56:09 PM

Depends on how you define ideology. And actually not everybody on here is blinded by their ideology, just the loudmouths on here. There are a handful of people that actually seem to use their brain but they are few and far inbetween.

And as for my ideology. Yes, I don't have one. I have a handful of core tenents I am not willing ot give up, but I do not tie them to any specific label and attack anybody who isn't carrying the same label.

Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-08-11 11:03:38 PM


Ever heard of freedom of the press snowy - something Russia doesn't have, unless you like dancing down stairs at 100 miles per hour, or eating some plutonium.

The only thing good about the whole affair is McCain may get elected, and some Russian blood will be spilt. I couldn't be happier when Putin destroys Russia and the Russians have to scavenge for Rats.

Posted by: Faramir | 2008-08-11 11:38:49 PM


Ever heard of freedom of the press snowy - something Russia doesn't have, unless you like dancing down stairs at 100 miles per hour, or eating some plutonium.


Posted by: Faramir | 11-Aug-08 11:38:49 PM

Yeah, ever heard of "editorial control"? You know, the one who pays the bills decides what gets printed?

Ask a few reporters who were trying to report on BGH for Fox for example and see what happened to them.

---------------

The only thing good about the whole affair is McCain may get elected, and some Russian blood will be spilt. I couldn't be happier when Putin destroys Russia and the Russians have to scavenge for Rats.

Posted by: Faramir | 11-Aug-08 11:38:49 PM

What goes around, comes around, I'd be careful what you wish for.

And besides, I doubt that the majority of people really cares about what happens "far far away" they ahve enough to worry about with the Economy, not to mention that the mass media in the US coulnd't even spell most of the names of the people involved without confusing the heck out of the average American.

Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-08-12 1:04:26 AM


Oh, and looks like the second province just opened up another front, trying to get the Georgian's out of "their" territory:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,571406,00.html

Calling General Adam, calling General Adam, the president of Georgia requests your urgent adivce on how to deal with this.

Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-08-12 1:05:49 AM


Snowy,

"Calling General Adam, calling General Adam, the president of Georgia requests your urgent adivce on how to deal with this."

Please explain your qualifications. How do you know Adam is wrong?

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2008-08-12 6:18:34 AM


Russia would not be in as good of position as they are if NATO had not done exactly the same thing in Serbia/Kosovo. The main difference is the Russians have not killed as many Georgian civilians as NATO killed Serbian civilians by bombing Belgrade for weeks on end.

Posted by: Tom | 2008-08-12 9:19:30 AM


Well, it looks like Russia capitulated, and the USA/NATO didn't even fire a shot. Russia wanted to oust the Georgian gov't, that was their goal, and they said so.

There are two differences between Georgia and Kosovo: 1) USA/NATO achieved their goals 2) USA/NATO a stopped a real genocide. And one major similarity, both the Kosovars and the Georgians love the USA/NATO and hate Russia.

Posted by: dave | 2008-08-12 11:43:48 AM


Dave said: 2) USA/NATO a stopped a real genocide.

a real genocide? you mean the one where the FBI looked and looked and looked and did not find ANY mass graves in Kosovo? That is the genocide you are talking about? There is no difference in these two conflicts, only the players have switched uniforms.

Posted by: Tom | 2008-08-12 12:07:03 PM


there is a lot more to genocide than mass murder.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/

Posted by: dave | 2008-08-12 12:39:39 PM


Oh no!! The Russians are acting like Americans. God help the region.

When Bush wants oil and pipelines - he commits a slaughter and takes it.

When Putin wants oil and pipelines - he commits a slaughter and takes it.

Government.

Posted by: Sarcasm | 2008-08-12 1:29:48 PM


"there is a lot more to genocide than mass murder."

Yeah, there's that big, honkin' US military base, Camp Bondsteel, guarding the pipeline.

http://indy.gr/library/i-yper-basi-ton-ipa-sta-balkania/camp_bondsteel_kosovo.jpg/

Posted by: DJ | 2008-08-12 2:26:40 PM


"Yeah, there's that big, honkin' US military base, Camp Bondsteel, guarding the pipeline."

Good thing too. Save the people and their livelihoods.

Posted by: dave | 2008-08-12 2:56:58 PM


Sarcasm
"When Bush wants oil and pipelines - he commits a slaughter and takes it."

What slaughter? What pipelines? Did you hear about the $80 billion budget surplus Iraq has? It came from all that oil Bush is allegedly stealing.

Neat trick.

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2008-08-12 3:46:41 PM


Iraq's 80 billion surplus, cost to US taxpayers, not including the blood of mostly young white men, 500 billion plus.

Priceless.

War is a racket!

Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

Posted by: DJ | 2008-08-12 4:17:33 PM


DJ,
Your response is irrelevant to my response to Sarcasm's assertion. He claims Bush is stealing the oil. I want to know how Iraq got it back so it could generate such a large surplus.

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2008-08-12 5:48:10 PM


dave:
“one major similarity, both the Kosovars and the Georgians love the USA/NATO and hate Russia.”

I guess it is not correct analogy:)

Bigger nations: the Serbs and the Georgians – one hates the USA/NATO and love Russia and another one is vice versa

Smaller nations: the Ossetins and the Kosovars – the same as with bigger nations:)

The only difference is that when the USA didn’t like the bigger nation (the Serbs) they were “bad guys” and the Kosovars secession was OK but in the last case the bigger nation (the Georgians) is the USA bootlickers and sure they are “good guys” and the Ossetins secession is not OK:) Double standards.

Posted by: Victor | 2008-08-13 1:29:22 PM



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