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Monday, August 11, 2008
More backstory on Russia’s imperial aims in Georgia
There continues to be ink spilled and bandwith used by those claiming that Georgia is somehow at fault for Russia’s attempt to overthrow its democratically elected government. The echo chamber goes something like this: never mond that South Ossetia is in Georgian territory; Georgia shouldhave just let South Ossetia and its Russian protectors alone. The fact that the entire South Ossetia issue was created by local and Moscovian Communists to get rid of Georgian anti-Communist leader Zviad Gamsakhurdia is never mentioned.
Also left out are some recent events the Washington Times editors noted this morning (emphasis added):
"Yet Russia has been encouraging the breakaway provinces and has been provoking the Georgian government into a military conflict. This occurs because Moscow seeks to dominate the former territories of the Soviet Union, to halt Georgia’s attempt to enter NATO and to weaken the prestige of the West.
The Kremlin has been gradually escalating its interference in the Caucasus. Last year, Russians illegally bombed Georgian territory twice. They have also been controlling the government of South Ossetia and even gave its citizens Russian passports. This was a tactic to allow Russia to claim “protection” over “Russian citizens” in South Ossetia. Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili’s decision to send troops into South Ossetia on Thursday was a just and overdue measure in order to ensure the territorial sovereignty of his nation."
In other words, Russia has been muscling in on its neighbor for years - ever since Saakashvili was elected (and his supporters had to take to the streets to get Russian stooge Eduard Shevardnadze to admit he lost in the Rose Revolution). When Georgia finally had enough of Russia’s irridentism, Putin had his “excuse” to send in the troops and put into action his plan to to do to Saakashvili what his predecessors did to Gamsakhurdia.
Many things are working in Russia’s favor: moral relativism in the free world, a craven appeasement instinct that infect many in same, confusion of this with the Chechnya-Dagestan affair (an entirely different matter that is unequivocally in Russian territory and is a bare-knuckles brawl between Russia and al Qaeda), and exhaustion among some in America over Iraq and Afghanistan.
That said, what Russia does not have is the truth. That stands with the Georgian people and their leaders who have tried to defend the nation against the Putinist tyrant next door.
Cross-posted to the right-wing liberal
Posted by D.J. McGuire on August 11, 2008 in International Politics | Permalink
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Kosovo.
Posted by: srba | 2008-08-11 6:28:00 AM
700 years of imperialism doesn't end that easily. Why is anyone surprized?
Posted by: Johan i Kanada | 2008-08-11 7:47:59 AM
That is the western standard! When you write this, please indicate the sourse of information. The CNN, Times and other western press do their conclusions only on words of Saakashvili... That is the objectivity? Western press say about killed civilians, but do not say who killed them... (2000 people and 12 russian peacekeepers who were there according Georgia-Russia-Ossetia-Abhazia aggrement from 1992). It was Georgia by shelling Tshinvaly, Ossetia city after an 2 hours from Saakashvili's public promise not to solve the problem in military way. (There is this TV report on CNN?) And only after that Russia sent it troops to stop this genocide of ossetians. Western press make its reports from Geogia, why not from Tshinvali, ruined, with corpses on streets.
Western press do not say that US feed Georgia with its offensive weapons and money, and Georgia's millitary expenses are the highest in the world.
There is a tremendous russia-phobia in western press... or it is well planed propaganda (after an hour from bombing Tshinvali Saakashvili gives interview to CNN saying, that Russia attack Georgia) There is so much lie in his words, that it becomes true in the eyes who what to see this...
Posted by: Pavel | 2008-08-11 7:58:38 AM
That is the western standard! When you write this, please indicate the sourse of information ...............
Posted by: Pavel | 11-Aug-08 7:58:38 AM
I'm just guessing but you wouldn't happen to be a Russky would you Pavel?
Posted by: The Stig | 2008-08-11 8:35:38 AM
Both sides in this conflict share the blame. Georgia should not be using force to prevent secession, but the Russian invasion is hardly an appropriate response. If you're interested in reading a blog from Georgia you can find at link at http://atlasnetwork.org/war-in-georgia/.
Posted by: Matt | 2008-08-11 9:35:09 AM
Of course he's russky. Pavel, what sources of information do you rely on? Vesti? RTR? Your corrupt "democratic" government has all of your mass media in their pockets. They write and say whatever putin wants them to say. What genocide are you talking about after what ossetians have done to georgians in Tskhinvali in 1992??? They were mutilating pregnant women while they were stuill alive and killing their babies right infront of them, saying "georgians have no right to exist in this world". They were skinning POWs alive and burning them on stakes!!! what genocide are you talking about Pavel??? May be Saakashvili should have waited with the offensive, but for how long? Day after day ossetians were provoking Georgia into the conflict, because they knew moscow wouldn't just sit back and watch. Most of you russians are filled with hatred against georgians. When will you learn the civilized ways of modern world?
Posted by: Gruzinchik | 2008-08-11 9:43:14 AM
Pavel, you are going to find very little Russkie sympathy here and well deserved in my opinion. This little game of "coming to the rescue" of other Slavs has been a game long played by the Russians.
What I find remarkable is the apathy in the press about this. Who the frack cares about John Edwards - we are on the brink of WWIII here and oil is falling and the markets are acting like it is business as usual.
Posted by: Faramir | 2008-08-11 10:01:55 AM
I believe the precedence was set by NATO in 1999 in Kosovo.
Posted by: Tom | 2008-08-11 11:59:07 AM
Both sides in this conflict share the blame. Georgia should not be using force to prevent secession, but the Russian invasion is hardly an appropriate response.
Posted by: Matt | 11-Aug-08 9:35:09 AM
Really now? How do you think a US reaction would have looked like? Or a Chinese for that matter?
Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-08-11 12:02:01 PM
Its just too bad that the U.S. encouraged Georgia to retake South Ossetia and now it stands back and does nothing. Condoleezza Rice visited and meet with the President of Georgia Mihail Saakashvilli just days before the operation started. Of course we cannot say what was discussed but do you think Saakashvilli would have attacked if given firm advice not to? Who benefits? Well, I would have to say the Republican side benefits as it gives a firm impression that the Democrats are off on vacation while the Republicans firmly condem the 'Disproportinate Actions of Russia'.
Posted by: Michael | 2008-08-11 12:28:35 PM
"Who the frack cares about John Edwards ?"
Neocons and their corrupt medias.
*
Once again, it's poor people who pay the price of two imperialistic and corrupted regimes that wish to control more feild. Speaking of the States, they're unable to prevail in Iraq and now they push for war with Iran and Russia (China).
Still can't beleive they're all dumb in the American congress. They need to start working cause no one will care when "blowback" will strike again.
Posted by: Marc | 2008-08-11 12:33:50 PM
Calmn down guys... Yes, I'm Russian. Why you always think that Russians are unfaithful to you? From where this phobia? I do not want to force you to change your mind, and of course I need no sympathy, I understand that there is notgood stereotype among western people against russians. I'll try to give you information, just to think all about...
I have some advantage over you, I could read in different languages, I could communicate much closer to the parties of conflict then you, so I have sources of information from more then both sides of conflict. I have lived in the Soviet Union and I know what is its propaganda, I understand this factor I filter it, so do not try to teach me this, I have immunity to it. But if you think that western press clear and do not do the same propaganda and US stoped the Cold War - you naive childs. I have said about killed people by Georgia, about Saakashvili's hypocrisy and lie, about fact that Georgia stats the conflict and that no one of this have been shown on CNN, Times... and so on - where is my lie? You dont believe that it is truth? But this fact are well documented in video and paper...
To Gruzinchik:
"Your corrupt "democratic" government has all of your mass media in their pockets" - do you know that duaring this conflict Saakashvili in Georgia turned off most TV channels, internet with domain ".ru" and so on. People from Tbilisi have been calling to Russia in order to know what happening? Official Georgia channels say them that Ossetia attaks Georgia and that it is a war.
Someone of them just call on random russian number to get informaion...
"What genocide are you talking about after what ossetians have done to georgians in Tskhinvali in 1992???..." - in that conflict both sides do the same... that was realy bloody shame. But Georgia was the inishiator. After death of the Soviet Union a lot of nations formed there states, and i think that in that case nation have the right to self-determination. Why Geogia thought then that Abhazia and Ossetia should be theirs??? Abhazia and Ossetia was in Soviet Union not in Geogia!!!
You realy want genocide or pearce and to look forward? 16 years Russia has been peacekeeper beetwin them, in order time heal wounds and they could come to an agreement.
"May be Saakashvili should have waited with the offensive, but for how long? Day after day ossetians were provoking Georgia into the conflict, because they knew moscow wouldn't just sit back and watch" - You think this is enough reason to ruin the whole city, killing thousads of civilians? Geogians do not provoke russian peacekeepers, never? Several times in last years peacekeeper were wounded - someone anytime bombed Tbilisi?
The truth is that as you say: "May be Saakashvili should have waited with the offensive, but for how long?" - Geogians all this 16 years just want to revenge for the lost of the war in 1992, but not peace. Sadly, I dont understand why this way is better then peace.
"Most of you russians are filled with hatred against georgians. When will you learn the civilized ways of modern world?" - You talk rot!!! Russians and Geogians lived side by side for hundrens years, Russia always protect Geogia against external agression, geogians and russians fight together against fascism, I saw no reason to war between our nations even now. I personly feel no will to fight against geogians, i just do not understand why, in my life i day by day communicate with geogians and sometimes with ossetians I feel no discomfort but pleasure. But lier Saakachvili, as any other murderer for crimes against humanity and against its own country deserve death.
To Faramir:
"This little game of "coming to the rescue" of other Slavs has been a game long played by the Russians." - What is the game? It is all too serious to be the game, it is true. What have you find unnatural in closer relations between Canada and US, between Arab nations, between Moslem countries? If there is some similarity between people they feel closer to each other...
To Johan i Kanada:
"700 years of imperialism doesn't end that easily. Why is anyone surprized?" - What are you talking about? In what century are you living? For the last 15 years Russia changed too seriously but you continue to live in the Cold War. Russia have too many problems inside in order to think about imperialism, it is not our reality now.
Just some facts:
How many countries do you now, where first person in the state is Russian protege? And US protege? I could list some of them where US protege in power: Georgia, Ukraine, Irak,Afganistan, Kosovo/Serbia problem - everywhere there is a conflict, revolution or war, maybe coincidence of course, but... Russia do not widen its sphere of influence since the death of SU. But this is not the US case... so who have imperial self-conceit? whom you should worry about?
"we are on the brink of WWIII" - no, just someone tries to make us think that it is so. Western press propaganda mashine... give someone a chance to make dirty money...
To some it all up:
Only strong and sure of oneself person could think free, without past stereotypes, keep open to new information and think independently. Don't be afraid Russians, you are always welcome if you purposes peaceful, Russia is much more another country then Soviet Union.
Posted by: Pavel | 2008-08-11 1:01:36 PM
wow! you people would make Adolf Hitler a saint based on his own words. Have you seen burned bodies of civilians killed by Saakashvili order? have you seen any news at all? guy used GRAD for God`s sake, early at Friday. Do you know what the GRAD is? ever seen it in action. Do you know its completely prohibited by UN and Saakafucker got to be hang just for it! Whatever Russia do now is a fare responce to Georgian action. And if you didnt see it yet - Russia didnt give a damn what US think about. What GB gonna do? send a troops? American army so week now even Iraqys kicked their ass. Not to mension collapsing economy... US would scream, no doubt. But they will not fuck with Russia, now.
Finally judgment will be served there and Saakashvili will be hang by International court for all his crimes!
Posted by: sysopny | 2008-08-11 1:06:30 PM
Georgia unleashed the war, killing citizens of South Ossetia. In most cases western media does not reveal the whole truth. Small George would never begin this war without US help and it is quite evident. How Georgia can accuse Russia of executing this war, if Georgian soldiers burned out civilians in a church who tried to save their lives inside the building! Georgians cleanse the region of ethnic Ossetians and call the West for help; this small “poor” Georgia seeks the way to become the member of NATO, even at the cost of people’s lives.
Posted by: Pauline | 2008-08-11 1:14:19 PM
I know that I'm from Russia. But the truth lies here: Russian forces entered only South Ossetia, not Georgia. Maybe you didn't hear about this but Georgian artillery ("Grad") attacked South Ossetia on the 6th of August in the evening. This happened BEFORE our forces entered S.O. That confirms that Georgia started the war. They've already killed 2000+ Russian and Ossetian people, what's next? Russia just tries to stop this.
Most part of Russian people respect Georgian people, but not their president Saakhashvili because he's just a doll of J.W.Bush, who started training Georgian forces just before the tragedy. Don't be surprised when the U.S. attacks Russia. Both U.S. and Georgia are interested in washing everyone's brains, all russian media was turned off in Georgia, think why. To make everyone think that big Russia makes aggression against small Georgia. Listen to European press, there you can find "average" point of view. For example, they say that we bombed Georgian airports, but I don't think we did.
Posted by: firefang | 2008-08-11 1:16:21 PM
to Michael:
'Disproportinate Actions of Russia'
Please tell how many civilians Georgia should kill in order that actions of Russia should be "proportinate" - 2000 not enough? may be 10000? or 1 000 000 of people? Or it may be easier to count for you if i change word "people" to "USA citisens" ???
Or
What are your "proportinate" actions when you are shelled by enemy artillery from enemy country and you very very want to live? What should you do? And what did done by US in Serbia, Irak in same circumstance?
Posted by: Pavel | 2008-08-11 1:18:48 PM
sysopny, I hope you and your Russians liars here bleed deeply and long. Frack you Russkie. And death to Putin and the KGB Republic. This was planned by Putin from the start. Russia is a piece of shit country that can't even conduct trade relations without every transaction going through a crime syndicate.
Posted by: Faramir | 2008-08-11 1:22:56 PM
Faramir: Putin couldn't plan this. Look at Saakhashvili and Bush. They've done a lot of violence to other countries. If you know, Putin didn't. I'm pretty sure you liked Eltsin who presented Alaska to the USA more. How can you even tell about Russian violence when South Ossetia was GRAD'ded by Georgian military the night before the Olympic Games? Georgians broke the tradition and human morale, but I wouldn't say about Georgia, Saakhashvili suits here better.
Posted by: firefang | 2008-08-11 1:37:19 PM
Faramir, nothing to tell essentially, there is no brains? just vegetable?
Posted by: Pavel | 2008-08-11 1:40:18 PM
There is no normal man that can wish death to someone. So get rid of all alchohol and drugs in your head before posting.
Posted by: firefang | 2008-08-11 1:46:51 PM
2 Faramir you only blind kitty.." Russia is a piece of shit country that can't even conduct trade relations without every transaction going through a crime syndicate.
etc BLA_BLA_BLA" - fun!
you really think that only USA citesens are GOD' s children ?
Posted by: me | 2008-08-11 1:51:55 PM
To some it all up:
Only strong and sure of oneself person could think free, without past stereotypes, keep open to new information and think independently.
Posted by: Pavel | 11-Aug-08 1:01:36 PM
Thanks Pavel. What setting do I use on my secret decoder ring to decipher this?
Posted by: The Stig | 2008-08-11 2:15:45 PM
Oh, I forgot Bush is evil. You liberal leftists are too predictable.
I've seen the pictures. To Russians genocide is an art form. I do though wish death on Russian soldiers. Them or us. Georgia today. Estonia tommorrow - from where my Grandma originates. So all you fracking Russkies can frack off and die. Then Poland.
Posted by: Faramir | 2008-08-11 2:39:15 PM
I've seen the pictures. To Russians genocide is an art form. I do though wish death on Russian soldiers. Them or us. Georgia today. Estonia tommorrow - from where my Grandma originates. So all you fracking Russkies can frack off and die. Then Poland.
Posted by: Faramir | 11-Aug-08 2:39:15 PM
You shoudl get together with ZP, the two of you seem to have some issues you can maybe work out together, if not, maybe you can combine it? Russia taking down Toronto and Ontario maybe?
Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-08-11 2:44:28 PM
to The Stig:
No problem, I'll repeat in open code:
Time passes, everything changing in the world, there is no Soviet Union, Russia is another country, stop looking at Russians through the Cold War stereotypes. Have the strengh to understand that CNN, Times, Washington Times and so on are not examples of pure democracy or journalistic ethics, now they just guides of US wish, which cover up with word "democracy" in order to became unconditional gendarme worldwide.
Use facts, logic and of course conscience to dig the truth, to form your own opinion as russian people done in Soviet Union.
Posted by: Pavel | 2008-08-11 2:59:36 PM
But the truth lies here: Russian forces entered only South Ossetia, not Georgia.
Posted by: firefang | 11-Aug-08 1:16:21 PM
Not according to the BBC which is reporting that Russian forces have entered Georgia proper.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7554507.stm
Posted by: The Stig | 2008-08-11 3:39:39 PM
"Oh, I forgot Bush is evil."
Evil? He’s definitely too incompetent to be able of those kinds of evil.
His masters, however, are certainly responsible for all that mess.
Posted by: Marc | 2008-08-11 3:46:11 PM
Didn't know Canada was so over run by the Russkie hordes.
In any case it is wondrous that the editors here shill for Russia yet are so worried about the ChiComs. Explain that to me.
Cold War stereotypes? Putin is K- G - B. Geez guys.
Posted by: Faramir | 2008-08-11 4:13:18 PM
In Soviet Union the priorities was such, that KGB could easily employ the most educated and clever people. So when the leader of the state is selected from the most educated people it is much much more better for the country then there is a family rule of transfering the power like in US or then artists or actors elected for power :)
And you know, that Putin is not a president now, because time passes and clever persons appear not only in KGB...
Posted by: Pavel | 2008-08-12 12:19:39 AM
Sorry, but BBC and CNN and others have good reasons for washing your brains. They show Georgia bombing South Ossetia and say that this is how Russia attacked Georgia. The US isn't wanted to know the truth, you'll see US forces "protecting Georgia from Russia" soon.
If you know, Saakhashvili has promised to stop fire a dozen of times so far but never did. If he lies to the whole world every day, how can you trust BBC and CNN?
Posted by: firefang | 2008-08-12 1:35:00 AM
"So when the leader of the state is selected from the most educated people it is much much more better for the country then there is a family rule of transfering the power like in US or then artists or actors elected for power :)
And you know, that Putin is not a president now, because time passes and clever persons appear not only in KGB..."
Pavel | 12-Aug-08 12:19:39 AM
Putin wasn't a Colonel in the KGB just because he was clever.
Putin is a dyed-in-the-wool Bolshevik.
Putin's father was Joseph Stalin's personal cook.
Stalin was famous for distrusting the people around him and having them executed.
That Putin's father was Stalin's personal cook, in a country where poisoning people is practically the national sport, says it all in my opinion.
And NO, Russia is not a different country than the Soviet Union.
The Soviet Union always was Russia.
Posted by: Speller | 2008-08-12 7:06:45 AM
correction:
That Putin's father was Stalin's personal cook, in a country where poisoning YOUR POLITICAL OPONENTS is practically the national sport, says it all in my opinion.
Posted by: Speller | 2008-08-12 7:09:05 AM
correction:
That Putin's father was Stalin's personal cook,
Posted by: Speller | 12-Aug-08 7:09:05 AM
It was his grandfather that was both Lenin's and Stalin's personal cook. His father was in the NKVD. Putin joined the communist party in university and stayed in until it was disbanded in 1991. So the families association with the communist party are long and deep.
Posted by: The Stig | 2008-08-12 7:53:39 AM
The point has been raised: Condoleeza Rice was in Georgia quite recently. Can we believe that Georgia's action was not discussed and approved then?
The answer is, yes, we sure can. It may be some time before we actually know, but until accurate records of the discussions are published, the only sensible assumption is that this all came as an unwelcome surprise to the Americans, and most likely to the Georgians as well.
Of course, those of us with a pathological desire to blame everything in the world on the USA will do so; they can do nothing else. My remarks are directed at the sane.
Posted by: ebt | 2008-08-12 11:07:54 AM
Two conflicts:
Bigger nations: the Serbs and the Georgians – one hates the USA/NATO and love Russia and another one vice versa
Smaller nations: the Ossetins and the Kosovars – the same as with bigger nations:)
The only difference is that when the USA didn’t like the bigger nation (the Serbs) they were “bad guys” and the Kosovars secession was OK but in the last case the bigger nation (the Georgians) are the USA bootlickers and sure they are “good guys” and the Ossetins secession is not OK:) Double standards.
Posted by: Victor | 2008-08-13 1:34:28 PM
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