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Thursday, April 03, 2008
On Europe, Islam, and a bunch of other things
While I wrote the post cited below as part of a debate in the Virginia blogosphere, I am curious as to what folks north of the 49th think of my argument:
As for "Islam," we need to remember just who our enemies are, here. They are far more specific than we are led to believe. We are fighting Wahhabists (Afghanistan and Iraq), Ba'athists (Iraq), and Khomeinists (Afghanistan and Iraq) - hence the initials in my term for this conflict (the WBK War). Contrary to conventional wisdom, Wahhabism is relatively young "sect" of Islam (about 200 years old), and most Muslims outside of it consider it heresy. Ditto for Khomeinism (named after the founder of the Iranian regime), the Shi'ite version of violent "faith" - which also roundly condemned by the Shia majority that are not part of it. Ba'athism's roots are not in Islam at all, but rather in Arab racism directly inspired by the Nazis.
Posted by D.J. McGuire on April 3, 2008 in International Politics, Religion, Weblogs | Permalink
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Comments
Those po' freaking Muslims are soooooooo misunderstood.
Who can keep track of which sect believes what and is doing what to whom for what reason with what money in what country and for what specific reason.
Best thing, keep em all out of here and send in more troops over there.
And to think we will have to deal with this global pariah for most the rest of this century.
Islam looks a lot like a mental illness, much like Liberalism.
The above is one though from north of the 49th.
Posted by: John West | 2008-04-03 11:24:28 AM
John West, once we manage to solve your Muslim Problem, who would you like our soldiers to go after next? Maybe we could do a poll on the blog.
BTW, which mental illness does Islam sound like to you? Something from the paranoid-narcissistic spectrum?
Posted by: Pattern Recognition | 2008-04-03 11:43:13 AM
To the Dhimmi Pattern Rectum ... you missed this line in the post.
"As for "Islam," we need to remember just who our enemies are, here."
I lump fools like you in with our enemies. You are the perfect useful idiot, so I guess I would have to think the troops might want to take a look at people like you next.
The Muslim problem is a global problem. You must have just come in on the noon train if you miss that obvious fact. Check the facts. Visit the site Jihad watch for starters.
"BTW, which mental illness does Islam sound like to you? Something from the paranoid-narcissistic spectrum?"
That would be the Left where the narcissists dwell in large numbers.
Posted by: John West | 2008-04-03 11:58:46 AM
PR:
"once we manage to solve your Muslim Problem, who would you like our soldiers to go after next? Maybe we could do a poll on the blog."
Dude, that's a great idea. But I think you're missing the point: we need a solution to ALL of our problems, a way to deal with all the troublesome folks in the world.
A Final Solution, if you will. I think you know what i mean.
Posted by: Alkar the Bard | 2008-04-03 12:21:40 PM
"I think you know what I mean."
Um. Ya. That was the [darkly sarcastic] point of capitalizing M and S in my last comment. To point out JW's creepy overtones without going all R.A.H. on the board (since we're so fond of acronyms).
Posted by: Pattern Recognition | 2008-04-03 1:17:31 PM
PARANOID: Provocative, pre-emptive attack
Superego Development: Defective
Conscience: Retributive, vindicates self
Destructiveness: Vengeful
NARCISSISTIC: Denigrating, demeaning to others
Superego: Immature
Conscience: Normal with Delusions
Destructiveness: Interpersonal Exploitation
Posted by: Pattern Recognition | 2008-04-03 1:20:25 PM
PR, you are still commenting in a very prolific way on this blog. Only a narcissistic, immature, delusional person would think that their opinions are ever so important that they have to deluge a blog. Believe me, I am recognizing a pattern here.
Posted by: Jerri | 2008-04-03 8:29:45 PM
"PARANOID: Provocative, pre-emptive attack
Superego Development: Defective
Conscience: Retributive, vindicates self
Destructiveness: Vengeful
NARCISSISTIC: Denigrating, demeaning to others
Superego: Immature
Conscience: Normal with Delusions
Destructiveness: Interpersonal Exploitation"
So I guess you'd better be careful.
Posted by: John West | 2008-04-03 8:39:28 PM
BTW, which mental illness does Islam sound like to you?
Posted by: Pattern Recognition | 3-Apr-08 11:43:13 AM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article3672067.ece
I'm surprised that there hasn't been any mention of this. I guess you consider the attempt to murder hundreds of people "normal" behaviour.
Adherents of islam suffer from some or all of the following mental conditions:
Obsessive-compulsive disorder is manifested in a variety of forms, but is most commonly characterized by a subject's obsessive compulsions (tasks or rituals) which attempt to neutralize the obsessions.
Muslims: Are compelled to pray 5 times a day, everyday, for the rest of their lives.
Paranoia is the belief that others are exploiting, or deceiving them, that others may not be loyal or trustworthy, believes there are threats or attacks on their character, bears persistent grudges, sees others as having malevolent intentions toward them, and has a constant habit of blaming others for their problems.
Muslims: The West is waging a Crusade against Islam and they are the cause of their self-made problems.
Persecution complex is when someone is convinced of the validity of their delusions and cannot tolerate criticism of their ideas. Questioning of their beliefs, no matter how trivial, is met with evasiveness, defensiveness, irritability, and hostility.
Muslims: From the triviality of the Mohammed cartoons to books by authors like Robert Spencer, just to list a few, a Muslim’s response is to claim persecution.
Posted by: The Stig | 2008-04-04 4:54:09 AM
Stig,
The above description also applies to the modern liberal.
Is it any surprise they so closely identify with one another?
Posted by: deepblue | 2008-04-04 7:04:15 AM
Granted it's an echo chamber here so I"m not going to expect much other than a group abhorgasm, BUT... is it possible the right is just as paranoid, just as obsessive-compulsive, just as narcissistic, and carries just as intense a persecution complex as the left?
Give The Stig's comment a re-read, and pretend—just pretend—you were a card carrying Post Socialist Liberal blogger, how would you re-spin it?
Posted by: Pattern Recognition | 2008-04-04 8:00:38 AM
Hard as I try to be 'open' to the 'muslim' argument, these people scare the shit out of me. I have very little problem with people based on the usual suspect biases but it gets more difficult to believe that the threat represented by the islamists isn't real. I have read about 50% of the qu'ran over the past few months and it is impossible to escape some obvious conclusions. The mere fact that world domination is so prevalent cannot be ignored.
Posted by: Crusader10 | 2008-04-18 9:51:59 AM
Crusader10 -
Umm...have you read the Bible? There's a whole lot of scary in there. Stoning, burning, raping, etc etc.
If you are yourself a Christian, it's hypocritical to judge Muslims by the "scariness" of their holy book.
Posted by: Angela | 2008-04-18 11:02:41 AM
Angela:
Any examples of how Christians should emulate their God through acts of violence from the New Testament, that is, on any Christian writings from the past 2000 years?
I believe you cite historical examples articulated in the Old Testament, which was a chronicle of Jewish history. Stuff happened back then, situations neither you or I could understand.
Suffice to say the Abrahamic religions sought an understanding that could take humanity out of its ignorance and hatreds.
Posted by: set you free | 2008-04-18 11:13:23 AM
SYF -
I'm absolutely aware that the Old Testament is far more violent and gory than the new. And I know that most Christians would not go around stoning and torturing "non-believers". Similarly, I'm sure that most Muslims do not use the Qu'ran as a literal, word-by-word guide for how to live their lives. My point was simply that Crusader10, as well as many others on this blog who like to rant on and on about the "scary Muslims" should take a look at their own religious texts and history and realize that they're not so different.
Posted by: Angela | 2008-04-18 11:58:57 AM
They're different Angela.
Posted by: dp | 2008-04-18 12:14:07 PM
Can you elaborate, dp? Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all Abrahamic, monotheistic religions which share similar stories, prophets, etc. Violence has been perpetrated in the name of every religion. I know that many Christians feel very strongly that there is some fundamental difference between their religion and Islam, but I don't really understand what it is. I would welcome your insight.
Posted by: Angela | 2008-04-18 12:28:26 PM
Yes, Angela, they are different.
I happen to believe the moderate Muslims when they say the radical jihadists represent about 2% of the total Muslim population of the earth.
The inspiration for that type of behaviour is a desire to emulate their prophet.
Multiply the admitted percentage and it still represents 30 million Muslims (1.5 billion x 2%).
I would defy you to present a coherent argument that 30 million jihadists are equivalent to any individual wingnut who claims they act violently in the name of any other religion. Take your pick ... Judaic, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist.
Where are the texts in which Christians, for example, emulate he violent example of Christ? You will never find them, because they do not exist.
So, cut out the moral equivalence argument.
There are Qur'anic texts which specifically call for the killing of the infidel. Originally, that meaning was for non-Abrahamic, but it has been expanded to mean every non-Muslim.
Why do you suppose the Buddhist statue was destroyed in Afghanistan? Because Buddha supported the imperialistic expansion of the US? Or because the US supports the creation of Israel by the United Nations?
Perhaps I missed something. Since you seem most wise, can you enlighten me as to which Christian tenets call for violent solutions?
Sure hope your arguments are based on some knowledge.
Posted by: set you free | 2008-04-18 12:32:05 PM
Angela:
Moderate Muslims around the world are starting to understand how the 2% that embrace jihad are harming their reputations.
In Quebec, there is one Muslim group who is theatening to take a radical imam who's preaching death to his fellow Quebecers to the Human Rights Commission.
In Iraq, the Iranian-sponsored imam (can't recall his name right off the top of my head) cannot operate effectively since the general population of Iraq has turned against the Al Quaida efforts, which have been condemned by many Muslim clerics.
Also in Iraq, most of the fighting against Al Quaida is done by the Iraqi army. It's effectiveness is helped when citizens call a hotline to report any suspicious activity.
Radical Islam is getting pummelled all over the world, mostly by the formerly silent majority of Muslims ashamed of how their fellow travellers have tarnished the name.
There will always be those who believe in the resurrection of a world-wide Caliphate, but the tide is turning against them.
Freedom is a God-given gift and radical Islam will be defeated quicker than you'd like to think.
Posted by: set you free | 2008-04-18 12:51:08 PM
"My point was simply that Crusader10, as well as many others on this blog who like to rant on and on about the "scary Muslims" should take a look at their own religious texts and history and realize that they're not so different."
And how many decades, centuries, or millennia since this kind of violence was condoned by the Christian faith Angela?
Christianity was the cornerstone for the formation of the modern democracies, most if not all, who promote and allow for the freedom of all religions.
How many Muslim countries allow the same freedoms?
Perhaps you should consider some of these realities before berating people who clearly have a better understanding of these issues.
Spouting the usual moral relativism's, and displaying the usual knee jerk contempt for Christianity while ignoring the realities of Islam that is so prevalent from the left today, simply has you coming off as an ass.
Posted by: deepblue | 2008-04-18 12:51:57 PM
Wow, allah forbid anyone question anything muslim! Angela. Yes I have read the bible. So what. Although I live a secular life now I have a christian background. So what. The fact that I state that in the past tense should tell you all you need to know about my feelings on that religion as well. So what. It is very weak to bring in a comparative or 'lesser of two evils' argument. It says much about 'your' prejudice and even more about your argument skills, or the lack thereof. When did christians last stone and burn people? Yesterday, 10 years ago, 100 years ago, 1000 years ago? I defy you to answer that question. Get serious.
Something that you are obviously choosing to ignore is the fact that many islamists want to live in a 7th century world. Very few christians live out their lives with 'old testament' values and violent prejudices today. I also don't remember the last time I saw a christian of any description stone a woman to death for 'any' reason. I would be happy to forward a site which will show you just such an act from Iran in 2005. I would also reference the 'soccer stadium' mass murder of so many Afghan women who ended up with a bullet in the head for reasons as insane as listening to modern music. These were shown all over the world but I guess you were busy during the taliban reign. This was the Taliban less than 10 years ago and it happened to thousands of women. You can witness this gore and religion driven femicide with a simple google search...if you have the guts to do so, which would, I am certain, render your argument ridiculous. If you are a woman defending these kinds of 'qu'ran' sanctioned activities, move to Saudi Arabia and never know what equality feels like again. If you haven't read the qu'ran, or even half of it, you don't know what you are talking about. Don't challenge me with lame assed bullshit. However, if you have something of 'real' substance to bring to the table, I would love to see it. I challenge you to rebut this argument with fact, not conjecture and hyperbole. Are you a muslim? or one of the many 'illiberal' converts that seem to be so pervalent on these pages, where everyone who isn't you is a CON bigot. Even libertarians are fair game for the new facist left. I used to be afraid of the extreme right. Now, by comparison, they were puppies to your liberal attack dogs. Try walking in the middle of the road sometime, or does the prospect of common sense scare you.
Posted by: crusader10 | 2008-04-18 12:58:35 PM
Christianity was the cornerstone for the formation of the modern democracies, most if not all, who promote and allow for the freedom of all religions.
Posted by: deepblue | 18-Apr-08 12:51:57 PM
That's a nice whitewash of Christianity. The reason why "multi theism" became popular was because nobody dared to outright ban any religious belief.
Democracy, enlightenment, science etc. didn't prosper because of Christianity but DESPITE of it. The tolerance of ANY belief took the sting out of Christianity as a societal force that seeked to dominate without outright upsetting all the religious nuts.
Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-04-18 1:10:43 PM
SFY
Is there some source for your "30 million jihadists" figure, or are you just pulling that out of thin air? If there really are 30 million people in the world who want every non-muslim dead, I'm frankly quite surprised that they haven't done more damage. They must not be very organized.
There are Qur'anic passages that call for the killing of non-Muslims. There are passages that specifically call for tolerance:
"Be courteous when you argue with the People of the Book, except with those among them who do evil. Say: "We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. Our God and your God is one. To Him we surrender ourselves."
Like Christian texts, the Qur'an is full of contradictions. I think that most Muslims pick and choose what passages they live by. I'm assuming that most Christians do the same, finding it more convenient to completely ignore the Old Testament, for example. As for the New Testament, I have to admit that it's been a long time since I've read it. I seem to remember a lot of people being cast off into pits of fire and "gnashing of teeth", whatever that means. If you've managed to decipher a positive message from it, more power to you. If you want examples of Christian violence, you should turn to a history book instead of a somewhat jumbled work of fiction. How many people have been killed throughout history in the name of Christianity? I'm glad that you don't think that Christian tenets call for violent solutions, but not every Christian would agree with you.
I'm not trying to bash all Christians, SFY - I think it's unfair to judge every Christian based on atrocities that have been committed in the past, and on the few fundamentalist Christian nut-jobs who are still around. Similarly, you shouldn't judge all Muslims based on the few that get the most press, and you shouldn't assume that Islam is different (ie. "more violent" than Christianity) simply because "violent Muslims" are a hot news topic right now.
Posted by: Angela | 2008-04-18 1:19:01 PM
deepblue:
You are correct.
The most tolerant, most advanced societies based on Christian understanding of free will and responsibility are those which have afforded their populations the most freedoms.
Atheist states like the Soviet Union, National Socialist Germany, China and various other south-east Asian countries have offered nothing but misery for their populations and slaughter for those who disagreed with their ideas.
I'd say it's safe to say that states based on Christian principles have been much more successful than the murderous atheist states of the 20th century, which is acknowledged by all historians as the bloodiest in history.
The strength of Christianity is its tolerance and forgiveness, unlike the tendency toward self-righteousness which creeps into Muslim and atheist regimes time and time again.
Posted by: set you free | 2008-04-18 1:23:27 PM
angela:
That 2% figure came from a Muslim panel in Doha, Qatar, which was debating the question about how radical Islam was hurting the religion's image.
It was broadcast on BBC television, which I saw about two months ago.
Although I have not seen any other, apparently the BBC ran an entire series on the topic.
I have no idea whether the 2% figure is accurate, but it seems to be a commonly-accepted figure within the Muslim community.
Posted by: set you free | 2008-04-18 1:27:10 PM
crusader10-
Did you notice that you chided me for using the "lesser of two evils" argument, and then proceeded to do exactly the same thing? It's been a long time since Christians burned people alive, but the Taliban was commiting mass murder in the last decade!
For the record - no, I am not Muslim. I'm an atheist. And my point, which perhaps I should have been more clear about, was not that it's okay for Muslims to stone people to death but that every relgion, at its heart, condones violence. Every religion has, at one time or another, killed people for being of a different faith. It's sad and horrible but it's true. So for you to point to "Muslims" (that's 1.8 billion people that you're talking about, by the way)as a people who "scare the shit out of you" based on a reading of half of the Qur'an is, in my opinion, narrow minded and wrong. People who stone people to death, burn them alive, torture them, are scary. "Muslims", in general, are not.
Posted by: Angela | 2008-04-18 1:33:39 PM
angela:
For the death toll carried out by atheist regimes, see Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Pol Pot, etc., etc.
Posted by: set you free | 2008-04-18 1:35:59 PM
CHRISTIANITY IS THE MOST VIOLENT RELIGION IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD!
Christians wiped out the Inca, the Maya, the Aztecs, stole their gold and enslaved those who survived the genocides. The Christians were led by priests and monks, carrying high the bible. The enslaved were then forced to convert to Christianity. Indeed, pre-slaughter conversion was commonplace. The idea was the native person was converted to save their soul then they were murdered so that they could not sin! That's Christian fundamentalist logic for you!
Did I mention Hitler, Mussolini and Franco were Christians? Yes they were! Did I mention the pope supported the Nazis (1933-45)? Yep, he did. Did I mention Christians were involved in the planning and execution of the Rwanda genocides? Ever hear of the Lords Resistance Army in N Uganda? Yeah, they are Christians and get Christian funding.
Christians brought us the the Inquisition, pogroms and the Holocaust. St Augustine carried out genocides in N Africa in the early days of the Church.
Christianity has more blood on its hands than any other religion in the history of the world. Plain fact.
Christians brought us two world wars in the 20th century.
Christians cannot live for long in peace--they have a blood lust cult.
Christians are the only ones ever to use nuclear weapons--they used it on civilian targets!
The KKK wear the symbols of Christianity from the earliest days of the faith dating back to St Augistine's time of Inquisitions and pogroms!
S African apartheid was sanctioned by S African Christian churches!
This is a sad story without end of intolerance, genocide, murder, rape, plunder and abuse in the name of faith....
Posted by: ROGER | 2008-04-18 1:43:44 PM
angela:
For research on the daily death toll perpertated by ROGER the hatemonger's Muslim brethren:
www.thereligionofpeace.com
That website chronicles every atrocity committed by jihadists on a daily basis.
For Qur'anic verses that justify jihadist acts, just research on:
www.prophetofdoom.net.
It's a small minority that is active in jihadist activities and a growing number of Muslims who reject the philosophy.
Many are coming to their senses and voting with their feet and accepting Christianity as the only true religion of enlightenment.
Posted by: set you free | 2008-04-18 1:49:32 PM
MUSLIMS ARE FIGHTING A DEFENSIVE WAR AGAINST WESTERN CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALIST AGGRESSION
The westerners want to steal resources under the ground of Muslim majority countries. That is one reason for the aggression--plain theft.
Another reason is that America and much of the west cannot survive without a designated enemy. The Soviets are gone, so Muslims were forced to take the place of the bogeyman. Now China is on the horizon to be the big baddies in the western mind.
Another reason is that there was the person interest of western leaders. Tony Blair and George Bush are both Christian fundamentalists who wish to defeat and convert Muslims to Christianity, with bullets and bombs if necessary, or kill all those who will not convert.
Then there is also the animosity and bitterness of the former colonial masters who were driven out of their colonies. Islam was one of the foremost leading forces to break the back of the imperial colonial powers, though it took over 350 years for Muslims to win!
Bottom line: No western military campaign will ever defeat Islam, as long as Muslims fight under the banner of Islam, and not under secular standards. The green flag of Islam is a battle standard that defeated Great Britain and republican France and the Netherlands, Italy, Spain and helped weaken the Belgians, Portuguese and Russian occupiers. It has certainly crushed American hegemony over the world. A tiny band of Muslim fighters armed only with home-made weapons have defeated America's multi-trillion dollar war machine and broken the back of NATO and smashed the Warsaw Pact forever! How is that for a war record! Amazing!
Posted by: ROGER | 2008-04-18 1:55:10 PM
SFY
Interesting point re: "atheist regimes". I don't agree, for the following reasons:
1) Correlation does not = causation. As atheism has no inherent dogma, it's difficult if not impossible to create a causal link between a leader's atheistic beliefs and immoral behavior. People under communist regimes are killed because they are seen as a threat to communism, not atheism. The fact that the leaders are atheist is completely ancillary. With religious genocides, however, it is the perpetrator's religious beliefs that are driving the atrocities.
2) Re: Nazi Germany - some people say Hitler was an atheist. At the very least he claimed to be Catholic. The Vatican's response (or, at best, lack there of) to the Holocaust is notorious.
3) I'm not sure why you think that "free will and responsibility" are solely Christian concepts, as implied in your 1:23 post.
Posted by: Angela | 2008-04-18 1:56:03 PM
NOTHING CAN COMPARE TO CHRISTIAN VIOLENCE, MURDER AND GENOCIDE, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Look at Robert Mugabe--he was "educated" at a Christian missionary school!
Posted by: ROGER | 2008-04-18 1:57:31 PM
"Many are coming to their senses and voting with their feet and accepting Christianity as the only true religion of enlightenment."
Millions of people in developing countries are dying of AIDS because Christianity tells them that condoms are evil. We may have had the power to cure unknown numbers of diseases through stem cell research, but progress has been halted because of religious lobbyists. If fundamentalist Christians had their way we would have an entire generation of ignorant children who don't believe in evolution and who think the world is less than 6000 years old.
I don't consider that "enlightenment".
Posted by: Angela | 2008-04-18 2:09:19 PM
The Muslim Enlightenment occurred in Andalusian Spain long before Europeans emerged from the Dark Ages of witch burning and superstitian. Muslims bequeathed to Europeans their love of learning, of public libraries and universities, both novel ideas to Europeans. But the western blood lust could not be tamed by civilization and the love of scholarship. No sooner had the westerners learnt al-chemy, al-gebra, and all the wonders bequeathed by Muslims to the ingrates of plagiarizing Europeans, than those same Europeans were figuring out how to use science and technology for war and conquest! Enlightenment indeed! LOL! Sure.
Posted by: ROGER | 2008-04-18 2:14:20 PM
angela:
If an atheist has no dogma, then why did the Soviet regime need to kill 10-30 million of its own citizens who disagreed with its viewpoint?
Not sure what Hitler's religious beliefs were, but I know for a fact there was no mention of a master race in the New Testament. Therefore, I can safely conclude he was not acting out Christian tenets.
What we do know is that he speeded up the process of natural selection and that he believed it could be carried out by culling our ‘undesirables; based on ....?
Both philosophies ackowledge they were inspired by the theory of evolution.
Karl Marx contacted Charles Darwin, asking him to write a foreword in his book and Marx is on record in correspondence with Engels as saying Communism is the political manifestation that uses concepts in the theory of evolution. He believed humanity could be ‘evolved' through a series of laws.
Of course, the theory was written a century before the scientific articulation of how DNA works. That particular field of science now knows it is impossible for one species to ‘evolve' into another, much in the same way that history has shown it is impossible to ‘evolve' people from their basic human nature.
The study of human nature is one of the cornerstones of humanity's search for understanding, which we now know as religion.
Science is a wonderful thing and is a valuable way human beings can make sense of the physical world.
Yet, there are things science cannot measure or explain.
I'll leave you with just four: grief, purpose, dignity and mortality.
While the state was distracted by other matters, it was religious figures throughout history who founded schools and hospitals and the Christian world led the way through its compassionate understanding of human beings.
Those are historical facts. There are times this oppenness, freedom and compassion are threatened and times when people have to defend what has made their existence bearable.
To turn over the world to ignorant savages like ROGER or atheists has already been proven to be a terrible mistake which must be avoided, no matter what the cost.
Posted by: set you free | 2008-04-18 2:15:46 PM
George Bush and Steve Harper believe in "Intelligent design"--newspeak for Christian fundamentalism. They want science courses at school to be about religion and the bible. They want children to be taught that the science of evolution is wrong and that the bible has all the answers to scientific questions. They want childen to go to natural science museums full of naked Eve chatting with a talking phallic looking snake who buys Eve's virtue for an apple and other fairytales. They want doctoral degrees in the biology of the biblical revelation--PhD, Intelligent Design, magna cum laude! LOL! Idiots.
Posted by: ROGER | 2008-04-18 2:19:21 PM
THE CHURCHES SURE DID OPEN SCHOOLS--RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS FROM MOUNT CASHEL TO THE ABORIGINAL HOUSE OF HORROR SCHOOLS ACROSS CANADA! Teachers, priests, monks and nuns abused all those poor kids in their care while the Church ignored their pleas for decades! Why Set You Free would refer to child abuse as a triumph of Christianity is beyond me! Did he miss the Pope's apologies?
Posted by: ROGER | 2008-04-18 2:23:17 PM
>To turn over the world to ignorant savages like ROGER or atheists has already been proven to be a terrible mistake which must be avoided, no matter what the cost.
Posted by: set you free | 18-Apr-08 2:15:46 PM<
Muslims will not go quietly into the night of the west's planned genocide! If you do not respect Muslims, what are you trying to achieve in Muslim Afghanistan? If you do not respect Islam, then you do not respect the vast majority of Afghans who hold Islam dear to their hearts and minds! If your intent is to con and fool Afghans, you will never succeed! American senators and theologians and others have openly spoken of bombing, even nuking Mecca, Medina and Muslim nations with whom they disagree. Such inflammatory rhetoric does nothing to win the hearts and minds of Muslims in Afghanistan or elsewhere. On the contrary, a single cartoon can do more to mobilize millions than all the jingoism of Bush and Cheney to rally their troops.
The west are the aggressors taking war to Muslim lands and killing Muslim civilians and destroying infrastructure and cultural symbols. The west props up despotic dictators and creates puppet regimes to control Muslim peoples. Most of the world understands these facts.
Iranians saw how their elected democratic government was overthrown and a dictator installed. They learnt the bitter lesson and the rest is history. Neither Bush nor NATO nor anyone else will attack and invade Iran. They might try and make a gesture of dropping some bombs, but even that option has consequences which scare Bush and Cheney, fools who are not easily scared. So, talk big--Christian fundy leaders know the score, even if you don't! LOL! Idiots. To be called a savage by this barbarian is a compliment!
Posted by: ROGER | 2008-04-18 2:34:28 PM
"If an atheist has no dogma, then why did the Soviet regime need to kill 10-30 million of its own citizens who disagreed with its viewpoint?"
The Soviet regime killed people who disagreed with...wait for it...Communism! Not atheism. The central tenets of atheism are free thinking, scepticism, logic. No one can be persecuted for "disagreeing" with atheism.
"Not sure what Hitler's religious beliefs were, but I know for a fact there was no mention of a master race in the New Testament. Therefore, I can safely conclude he was not acting out Christian tenets."
Do you know what there was mention of in the New Testament? The fact that the Jews were responsible for the death of Christ. See, for example, Matthew 23:31 and 27:25; John 5:16 and 7:1; Acts 3:14 and 10:39, etc. It certainly is a lot easier to try to wipe out an entire people when the masses are convinced they are "Christ Killers".
"Yet, there are things science cannot measure or explain.
I'll leave you with just four: grief, purpose, dignity and mortality."
I'm assuming that you mean "morality", not mortality. Science is actually very good at explaining mortality.
Evolutionary psychologists have done a lot of research regarding alturistic behavior (ie. "morality"). It's actually found in many, many other species besides humans. I'm assuming that chimps do not display alturistic behavior because of their Christian beliefs.
I don't really know what sort of scientific explanation you're looking for regarding "dignity, purpose or grief", but I can assure you that just because you don't the scientific explanation doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
Posted by: Angela | 2008-04-18 2:34:37 PM
Set you Free is an example of Christian tolerance, goodness, turning the other cheek and loving they neighbour and doing unto others before they do unto you! LOL! I sure love to think that Conrad Black is turning the other cheek in jail, where he is Eve in the vipers pit barrel of apples! LOL! Black always loved aristocratic titles. Now he is queen of Coleman jailhouse! LOL! And boy does he pray a lot these days!
ALL RELIGIONS ARE FAIRYTALES! They are for weak people who get scared when things go bump in the night. Scoundrels like to prey on the weak and used religion to con people. CONservative Party types know this too well! LOL!
Posted by: ROGER | 2008-04-18 2:44:21 PM
Set you Free has scampered back under his rock! LOL!
Posted by: ROGER | 2008-04-18 2:45:34 PM
Hey Angie,
What can you expect from people who promote wars in ME onna daily basis but, from their Canadian living rooms and not on site?
Hopefully, Neocons and other religious extremists are a rarity in the Canadian society and in a near future, the only place you'll hear from them will be because you're standing in a museum.
Don't worry,
Canadian people are living real lives while those freaks, when not busy shitting their pants while on their laptops, are switching from Faux news to VisionTV. Let them be, that's all I say.
Posted by: Marc | 2008-04-18 3:01:00 PM
"If an atheist has no dogma, then why did the Soviet regime need to kill 10-30 million of its own citizens who disagreed with its viewpoint?"
Ethnic conflict. The Communists executioners were, disproportionately, Jews.
"It certainly is a lot easier to try to wipe out an entire people when the masses are convinced they are "Christ Killers"."
If true, then why did it take them so long? Martin Luther made the case four hundred years earlier. It was driven by fear of atheistic Communism, which was disproportionately, Jewish.
"They are for weak people who get scared when things go bump in the night."
They are also amazingly adaptive from an evolutionary perspective. Part of the triumph of Euro Christianity over Euro-paganism was that in the end Christian women had more babies. It is also the challenge liberalism faces from Islam. Muslim women have more babies.
Posted by: DJ | 2008-04-18 3:35:33 PM
Atheist states like the Soviet Union, National Socialist Germany, China and various other south-east Asian countries have offered nothing but misery for their populations and slaughter for those who disagreed with their ideas.
Posted by: set you free | 18-Apr-08 1:23:27 PM
*sigh*. Nazi Germany was a Christian Nation.
The soldiers prayed before they went into Battle. Hitler was Christian and the belt buckle of the Wehrmacht soldier read: "Gott mit uns" (God with us)
Here's a picture of one: http://www.bibleetnombres.online.fr/images6/gottmuns.jpg
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Hitler often praised Christian heritage, German Christian culture, and professed a belief in Jesus Christ. In his speeches and publications Hitler even spoke of Christianity as a central motivation for his antisemitism, stating that "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice".
His private statements, as reported by his intimates, are more mixed, showing Hitler as a religious man but critical of traditional Christianity.
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As for the Soviet Union, yes there was no State Religion (neither is there one in the US or Canada) but Religion wasn't forbidden per-se. Russian Orthodoxy was and is around, unlike the cultural Revolution in China where Mao tried to eradicate religion completely this never happened in Russia.
I know I know SYF, never let historical facts stand in the way of your opinion, but for others who aren't quite as much on an ideological crusade
as you are.
But now, go back and tell me how much I suck / don't know what I talk about / are the devil or whatever cute little personal attack you can come up with.
Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-04-18 3:39:16 PM
3) I'm not sure why you think that "free will and responsibility" are solely Christian concepts, as implied in your 1:23 post.
Posted by: Angela | 18-Apr-08 1:56:03 PM
Technically only Atheism really can make that claim. Anybody who believes in a higher guiding power automatically gives up "Free will" and to a certain part responsibility.
Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-04-18 3:43:42 PM
Grief is highly adaptive. It's one of the driving forces to protect life, especially immediate family and allies. Darwin used the example of the migratory bird. It will tend to its eggs until the moment it instinctively knows it must migrant, and then in the blink of an eye, it will leave its potential offspring with no remorse or grief.
Dignity is a species-ism tied to purpose and purpose is reproduction and survival.
Altruism is well explained above.
Posted by: DJ | 2008-04-18 3:45:47 PM
"Nazi Germany was a Christian Nation."
So was Luther's Germany. So was Wilhelmine Germany. It doesn't explain the motivation for the Jewish holocaust.
Posted by: DJ | 2008-04-18 3:49:34 PM
Karl Marx contacted Charles Darwin, asking him to write a foreword in his book and Marx is on record in correspondence with Engels as saying Communism is the political manifestation that uses concepts in the theory of evolution. He believed humanity could be ‘evolved' through a series of laws.
Posted by: set you free | 18-Apr-08 2:15:46 PM
It has been a while since I read that letter, but you seem to have gotten a bad translation. Marx was entertaining the idea of Communism EXACTLY because he saw the tenants of Darwin's evolutionary theory play out in his temporary society. He envisioned Communism as the antidote where there wouldn't be a constantly clawing over every little thing between people, but rather a unified goal where everybody had the same rights and life.
Ironically enough, aren't you one of many on here who actually advocate a Darwinian System where any kind of social program gets scuttled because it "steals" from the rich?
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Yet, there are things science cannot measure or explain.
I'll leave you with just four: grief, purpose, dignity and mortality.
Posted by: set you free | 18-Apr-08 2:15:46 PM
Grief actually can be explained as far as the brain is concerned and the amount of neurotransmitters etc. It also shows up in brainscans.
Purpose? That's a philosophical thing. If you mean "why are we on this planet" then the answer is rather simple really:
Eat, shit, fuck and die. There is not bigger purpose in life. Of course that isn't very comforting for most people so there are religions that sort of tell you a beautiful story on how it all will be better and how you are special. Some of us, of course, are more special than others.
As for dignity... That's another philosophical concept and depends on context, so how science factors into it is a bit of a mystery to me, please expand.
Mortality is rather well explained, Morality too (so it altruism) as Angela pointed out.
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To turn over the world to ignorant savages like ROGER or atheists has already been proven to be a terrible mistake which must be avoided, no matter what the cost.
Posted by: set you free | 18-Apr-08 2:15:46 PM
Actually ignorance usually stems from religious people who think someone higher up is "guiding their life". It seems to sort of take away any kind of responsibility they feel towards the world as a whole (aka: "If $deity wouldn't want me to do it, they wouldn't let me").
Just curious though, can you please show me one Atheist who personally affected you negatively, motivated by his atheism?
Posted by: Snowrunner | 2008-04-18 3:54:27 PM
Maybe there is no free will.
A team of scientists has unraveled how the brain unconsciously prepares our decisions
"Already several seconds before we consciously make a decision its outcome can be predicted from unconscious activity in the brain. This is shown by a study of scientists from the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Leipzig, in collaboration with the Charité University Hospital and the Bernstein Center for Computational Neuroscience in Berlin. The researchers from the group of Professor John-Dylan Haynes used a brain scanner to investigate what happens in the human brain just before a decision is made. "Many processes in the brain occur automatically and without involvement of our consciousness. This prevents our mind from being overloaded by simple routine tasks. But when it comes to decisions we tend to assume they are made by our conscious mind. This is questioned by our current findings." "
Posted by: DJ | 2008-04-18 3:58:24 PM
Christians get defensive when one points out the warts of their Church and tradition. Christians obviously believe themselves to be superior to other faiths. Christians feel compelled to impose their faith on others. Missionary work is the core of Christian tradition and belief. Prosletizing is part of Christianity. Neither Hindus nor Sikhs nor Buddhists nor Muslims nore Jews are interested in Christian missionaries trying to convert their people. But Christians believe that they ought to try anyway, and if the natives are not receptive, hell, try bullets and bombs to force Christianity down their throats! LOL! Christianity as force fed dogma!
Christian history led from many roads to converge on the road to Auschwitz, the seminal and terminal event of Christianity! For that Christian crime, the west expect Arabs to pay--Muslim and Christian Arab alike!
Posted by: ROGER | 2008-04-18 3:59:05 PM
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