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Monday, January 07, 2008
Cuba conundrum
It's snowing right now outside my Coquitlam, B.C. home, and in such weather one's thoughts quite naturally turn to tropical escapes. For many Canadians, this means Cuba.
But there are important considerations involved in deciding to pour one's vacation dollars into a country with such a despicable human-rights record. For me, this is a serious issue. My Tri-City News debating opponent Mary Woo Sims, however, seems more concerned about the U.S. embargo on the country than about the scores of Cubans rotting in jail because they dared criticize the communist regime.
Posted by Terry O'Neill on January 7, 2008 in International Affairs | Permalink
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Crooked corrupt Cuba does not want the embargo ended, they are quite happy the way things are. If the embargo ended the social turmoil would be too much for that fascist regime, they couldn't deal with the consequences, the people would want freedom more than ever before.
Canadians who support that prison island by vacationing there are ignorant and/or mean towards fellow human beings - and they are probably hated very much by Cubans who want the freedom to live.
Posted by: philanthropist | 2008-01-07 9:14:19 AM
I've vacationed in Mexico and observed the way Americans interact with the locals. It amazed me how disrespectful they are of the service people.
Do you know who the Mexicans really dislike? Yes, it's us Canadians. Why? Because we're cheap and don't tip very well. I have no doubt that it's much the same in Cuba.
It's apparent to me that American money is more important than Canadian good will.
Posted by: dp | 2008-01-07 9:26:39 AM
What I hate about Canadian rubes travelling in Mexico is how they unnecessarily flaunt their patriotism while travelling. THese idiots do not understand how poor Mexicans are, how hard they work to keep their families fed and that there is no social safety net to look after them.
This is the last place one should be flaunting ones wealth manifest in citizenship. Be proud to be a Canadian, but behave as a guest. There is no need to rub anyone's nose in your citizenship.
Epsi
Posted by: Epsilon | 2008-01-07 9:43:21 AM
dp -
Was your Mexican vacation recent? If recent (e.g. within the last five years), I expect you are witnessing the gathering and tremendously building hatred that Americans are developing for the source of illegal alien invasion of our country.
Terry -
I wish that you and Miss Woo Sims had attempted to quantify the relative proportion of Canadians who like to vacation in Cuba (i.e. "...as an up yours to America..." as per Miss Sims' styling) versus those who use more than facial expressions to effect "concern" for their fellow men.
I would never have guessed that "vacationers" to Cuba would be other than vacant self absorbed (cheapskate) Europeans. Other than PET, what Canadian would think to support Communist Cuba?
Yikes!
Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2008-01-07 9:46:47 AM
Reasons why Canadians travel to Cuba?
1) Rub it in the face of the USA.
2) Cheap travel to a warm location.
3) Sex.
Morality and whether the Cuban gov mistreats its citizens has no weight on the argument. Canadians are no better or worse than the Italians, Mexicans, Spaniards or Argentinians...or the much maligned pre-1959 United States.
Since nothing lasts forever, I hope that the Cuban people will forgive us for our actions once their country morphs into some sort of truly democratic system..
Posted by: mario | 2008-01-07 10:03:18 AM
Sex tourists such as mario tend to flock to Thailand. Not only can you get very young prostitutes, but drugs are cheap and plentiful.
If you're heading to the Caribean for sex, you'll be getting it mainly from other drunk tourists.
Epsi- I also think that Mexicans don't understand how hard Canadians work to have enough money to travel to Mexico. They assume we have lots of spare cash like our American cousins, but we all know after taxes we're not much further ahead than the Mexicans are.
Conrad- I haven't been anywhere for over 5 years, so if you say it's getting worse I think I'll stay home for five more. Unless I go to the States while our dollar is worth something.
Posted by: dp | 2008-01-07 10:16:30 AM
What's the issue with the American embargo on trade with Cuba? Castro stole American property when he violently assumed his dictatorship, so America doesn't trade with him, end of story. It's not a blockade, Cuba's free to trade with any other country in the world. How can an embargo by the Americans be blamed for anything? You'd think the lunatic leftytards would want many more embargos between America and other countries.
Posted by: anon | 2008-01-07 11:46:15 AM
There are large Canadian companies like Sherritt that took over some of the Cuba-nationalized American mining and metals refining firms like Macmoran.
It reminds me of the fall of the iron curtain when families, forced from their homes with little or no compensation, return to find freeloaders living in their house that they built with their money.
It will be interesting to see how this similar kind of thing gets resolved at a corporate level.
Epsi
Posted by: Epsilon | 2008-01-07 12:09:57 PM
The facts of the case are these:
1. The United States of America has no legal, ethical, or moral obligation to sell its products to anyone, or to purchase anyone's else's. But if they wish, they may do so.
2. Cuba has no legal, ethical, or moral obligation to sell its products to anyone, or to purchase anyone else's. But if they wish, they may do so.
So what's the problem, Mary?
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2008-01-07 2:02:15 PM
Dear Philanthropist,
Next time you go shopping and purchase a product made in China, consider directing your comments to the world support of a country with a human rights record many times worse than Cuba's and whose government, with all their money, cannot achieve the care and compassion Cuban's exhibit towards their own people. I choose to spend more money there than in China.
Nom
Posted by: Nom | 2008-01-07 2:09:20 PM
. . . and I choose NOT to suport either commie country, So there!
Posted by: obc | 2008-01-07 2:48:32 PM
Dear Nom,
It's pretty hard to purchase any kind of consumer product today that isn't made in China, whereas it's very EASY not to buy anything made in Cuba, which is far less industrialized. Of course, since you're shooting for such a high standard of moral perfection, why don't you patronize *neither* country?
And quite frankly, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Cuban government cares that much about its own people, what with Castro's well-documented habit of periodically driving thousands of them into the sea on rickety homemade rafts whenever he wants to make a point.
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2008-01-07 3:30:39 PM
Shane ~
"Cuba, which is far less industrialized"
I nominate this comment of yours for the understatement of the year! :)
Posted by: obc | 2008-01-07 4:15:30 PM
China "a country with a human rights record many times worse than Cuba's"?
Totally Ignorant Bullsh*t
Posted by: anon | 2008-01-07 5:59:52 PM
Really???
I don't recall reading anything about Cuba selling organs from prisoners to the highest bidder - including hearts!
Posted by: obc | 2008-01-07 6:09:23 PM
Cuba is a great THIRD WORLD country, with a very low infant mortality rate and high life expectancy. Not to mention that Cuba has one of the highest literacy level in the world. Cuba should be compared to countries like Dominican Republic, Haiti and Guatemala (THIRD WORLD countries). Then you can see how well they're doing. There are many other countries in Latin America that are worse than Cuba. Think about it!
Posted by: maizein | 2008-01-07 6:11:24 PM
maizein, you're an idiot! I used to live in a communist country and infant mortality was low and the country had a high life expectancy. Then 1989 came and the foreign media was allowed to see Romania's orphanages. Remember that? remember those Auschwitz-like kids? They were not included in the official communist statistics.
i will never go vacationing to Cuba as long as the commies are there. can you imagine the outrage if people were to go sunbathing into a country run by nazis? commies are worse than nazis. where is the outrage?
Posted by: john | 2008-01-07 7:23:15 PM
there's no arguments against facts! even the UN recognizes Cuba's social indexes. don't be blind! If even Cuba, under the rule of "evil" communists can get rid of extreme poverty, why can't "free" countries like Dominican Republic, Haiti, Guatemala, El Salvador, Brazil, Mexico, etc... can't? If things in Cuba are so bad, how can the people live so long there? To live long you need to be healthy and, most importantly, HAPPY!
Posted by: maizein | 2008-01-07 7:47:37 PM
"even the UN recognizes Cuba's social indexes"
Right! Always trust an institution that is run by lying kleptocratic socialists who align themselves with Fidel's philosophies.
"communists can get rid of extreme poverty"
Cubans are rationed meat for once a month. Even beans and rice are rationed!
My lord, how the universities have brainwashed you!
Posted by: obc | 2008-01-07 8:44:24 PM
They have an incentive to live longer. They want to outlive Castro.
I think they're onto something with the rationing. I wish someone would ration my food for a few months.
Posted by: dp | 2008-01-07 9:42:49 PM
Maizein wrote: There's no arguments against facts!
Where there are dreamers and ideologues, Maizein, there will always be arguments against facts.
Maizein wrote: Even the UN recognizes Cuba's social indexes. Don't be blind!
The UN also recognizes five distinct genders. Nature, meanwhile, recognizes only two, at least in mammals. Please. Don’t hold something up as automatically true just because this weary old enclave of Woodstock refugees and Peace Corps activists says it is.
Maizein wrote: If even Cuba, under the rule of "evil" communists can get rid of extreme poverty, why can't "free" countries like Dominican Republic, Haiti, Guatemala, El Salvador, Brazil, Mexico, etc... can't? If things in Cuba are so bad, how can the people live so long there? To live long you need to be healthy and, most importantly, HAPPY!
If life in Cuba is such a gas, Maizein, why do people risk their lives in their tens of thousands on rickety homemade rafts to drift across the most hurricane-prone stretch of water in the world, trying to reach the United States? I suppose you COULD make the argument that, like any good “progressive” souls, they’re all sensitive to cigar smoke…
To sum up: Don’t show your ignorance. Every day we’re bombarded by pathetic tales about how the American embargo is starving the Cuban people out of existence. Sure, they have free medical care there, but only because the doctors work for miserable government wages under the watchful eye of a government that tolerates neither dissent nor any failure that might create embarrassment.
The “universal coverage” of which Castro so proudly boasts is far from universal. Sure, they’ll give you an operation, but if you want sutures, you have to buy them on the black market. Supplies such as Aspirin and antibiotics are conspicuously low and surgeons must re-use latex gloves until they fall apart. For extended hospital stays, you must provide your own food, and your own bedsheets. Infant mortality is low, but that’s partly because the abortion rate is one out of every three pregnancies. It’s not the sunshine-and-puppies paradise you see in the Michael Moore flicks, Maizein.
But since even all of that isn’t likely to shatter your illusions, allow me to bring down the hammer, the litmus test, the acid test. If you want to REALLY know how popular a country is, both with its own citizens and with prospective immigrants, just follow the traffic. If Cuba is such a paradise, why do more people try to get out than in?
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2008-01-07 9:48:45 PM
"Sure, they have free medical care there"
. . . but Castro imported a Spanish doctor AND his equipment when HE needed medical care last year.
Posted by: obc | 2008-01-07 10:21:09 PM
Shane, I just wanted to point out that Cuba is not worse then any other Latin America country. ALL the bad things about Cuba DO occur in ALL Latin America countries. However, the GOOD things about Cuba we don't see happening elsewhere in LA. You probably live in a rich country, and may not really understand what living below poverty level is. So, if a country can control infant mortality, increase life expectancy, and educate its population, that's good, that's positive. However, if you don't accept the FACT that Cuba has better social indexes than ALL (yes, ALL) other LATIN AMERICA countries, we cannot even seriously discuss this subject. I'm not denying that bad stuff also happen there but there's a lot of good stuff going on. Only Americans do not want people to see that Cubans are indeed happy and healthy people. They're poor, no doubt. But they have dignity. People from every where go to Cuba and most of them (including many Americans) do realize that the things they were told about Cuba were not true.
There's so many countries in the world in worse shape than Cuba, that I just don't understand why should we be concerned about that island. Thing about it!
Posted by: maizein | 2008-01-08 11:17:20 PM
Shane, I just wanted to point out that Cuba is not worse then any other Latin America country. ALL the bad things about Cuba DO occur in ALL Latin America countries. However, the GOOD things about Cuba we don't see happening elsewhere in LA. You probably live in a rich country, and may not really understand what living below poverty level is. So, if a country can control infant mortality, increase life expectancy, and educate its population, that's good, that's positive. However, if you don't accept the FACT that Cuba has better social indexes than ALL (yes, ALL) other LATIN AMERICA countries, we cannot even seriously discuss this subject. I'm not denying that bad stuff also happen there but there's a lot of good stuff going on. Only Americans do not want people to see that Cubans are indeed happy and healthy people. They're poor, no doubt. But they have dignity. People from every where go to Cuba and most of them (including many Americans) do realize that the things they were told about Cuba were not true.
There's so many countries in the world in worse shape than Cuba, that I just don't understand why should we be concerned about that island. Think about it!
Posted by: maizein | 2008-01-08 11:17:34 PM
maizein, do you work for the Cuban government?
Posted by: philanthropist | 2008-01-09 12:04:21 AM
philanthropist ~
Either that, or he's a university graduate - but not in the hard sciences.
Posted by: obc | 2008-01-09 6:23:55 AM
Maizein, Cuba is under discussion because that is where a lot of Canadians like to vacation; the issue is whether this is appropriate given Cuba’s treatment of its own people and its attempt in 1962 to serve as a launching pad for Soviet missiles. One would think that a nation as self-righteous as Canada, who routinely chastise the U.S. for being out of step with liberal values, would take an even harder line with a communist dictator. But no: Trudeau and Castro were on hugging terms (a friendship doubtless forged in a common hatred of the U.S.), and Castro was even a pallbearer at PET’s funeral.
Americans have no interest in hiding who Cubans are; they merely savour old grudges and so have refused to treat with them. The issue is with Cuba’s one-man government, not its people. This embargo has survived both liberal and conservative administrations. There is nothing illegal, immoral, or unethical about it, although at this point it does smack of a certain obstinacy. Castro, for his part, has been just as obdurate; perhaps a thaw will be possible once he kicks.
By the way, you’ve gone from so-called “facts” to speaking in vague emotional terms—a sure sign that I’m dealing with an activist. You should NEVER let emotion enter your dissertations, if you expect to be taken seriously by anyone except the Oprah crowd.
Posted by: Shane Matthews | 2008-01-09 8:04:55 AM
>"ALL the bad things about Cuba DO occur in ALL Latin America countries......However, if you don't accept the FACT that Cuba has better social indexes than ALL (yes, ALL) other LATIN AMERICA countries, we cannot even seriously discuss this subject."
maizein | 8-Jan-08 11:17:34 PM
I was not aware that Costa Rica and Brazil had political dissidents in prison or that they do not allow their people to freely exit their countries.
Really, the things I don't know about Latin America.
Your information about Cuba's social indexes come from where, maizein, the issuances of a Communist government?
Facts from Communist governments are pretty thin on verification.
Posted by: Speller | 2008-01-09 9:00:27 AM
Speller, I happen to be from Brazil, and I can guarantee that, for the poor, there's no freedom at all in Brazil. Even though they are not barred from entering public places, security guards will make sure they feel uncomfortable enough to just leave and never come back again. Domestic workers are treated very bad by their employees, and are constantly humiliated in public places.
Regarding Cubans trying to desperately leave the island, well, Haitians and Mexicans do the same, except that they do not receive the same treatment as Cubans when they get ashore.
I know a Cuban that once said that THE ONLY REASON he left Cuba was because he wanted to MAKE MONEY. And he also said that he would not leave Cuba to ANY other country than the USA. If life is so bad in Cuba, why Cubans don't try to seek harbor in Dominican Republic, Guatemala or El Salvador (they have at least the same language in common)? No, they all want to go to the USA, for one very simple reason: $$$.
And by the way, Cuban social indexes are fact. The US government does not want you to comment or talk about them, but they are real. Life expectancy, infant mortality and literacy levels are comparable to the indexes of Canada and USA (rich countries), even though Cuba is an extremely poor country. Just stop and think why Cuba can do that and no other country in LA can. I'm not saying that Cuba is a paradise, but many other countries in LA are in much worse shape. Those are the countries we should be trying to fix first.
Posted by: maizein | 2008-01-09 12:54:26 PM
maizein,
I don't doubt that there is as much poverty in the rest of Latin America as there is in Cuba.
I never said otherwise.
That America is more interested, for political reasons, in welcoming Cubans rather than Mexicans or Haitians is irrelevant and has nothing to do with living conditions in Cuba.
(Haiti isn't even in Latin America)
>"ALL the bad things about Cuba DO occur in ALL Latin America countries"
maizein | 8-Jan-08 11:17:34 PM
All bad things about Cuba DO NOT occur in ALL Latin American countries.
Feeling uncomfortable enough to just leave and never come back again to a particular public place IS NOT the same as being thrown in a Cuban prison.
The true social indexes of Cuba, if compiled, are known only to the Cuban government, which is a Communist government, and as such, are as suspect as the now known to be false social indexes which derived from the Soviet Union.
If all Cuban expatriates want to do is make big bucks, yet life is as good in Cuba as the U.S., then Cuban expatriates are a pretty sorry lot.
I don't see why the Cuban government wouldn't want to let these people leave Cuba as freely as any other Latin American countries permit their own people to leave.
Maybe, you can explain why the Cuban government imprisons or kills people who want to leave the Island paradise, eh maizein?
Wouldn't the Cuban government want to be rid of such shallow people who leave a paradise just to get big money?
Wouldn't the Cuban government want these people to send hard American currency back to their relatives just like other immigrants from other places do?
I think you're just a Communist shill, maizein.
Posted by: Speller | 2008-01-09 1:22:22 PM
The opportunity to make money (gasp!) is an inherent part of freedom.
You have just exposed yourself as a socialist - if not a communist.
Those two ideologies are responsible for the deaths of 125 million people in the last century.
Nothing to be proud of, Mr Marxist!
Posted by: obc | 2008-01-09 1:42:02 PM
I want to clarify somethings. First Fidel got a Spanish doctor, because he was afraid that the cuban one that "live IN THE ISLAND" was going to either do something against him or tell the world what his medical situation was. Second, the Hib vaccine, a vaccine against meningitis B, a vaccine to innoculate bovines against ticks, vaccine against infectious equine encephalomyelitis,an anti-Gumboro vaccine, and more... where invented by cubans (A third world country). Cuba has a lot of bad things, but at the same time, a lot of good ones. I read every single one of your comments, and I am not against nobody. But just to make it clear, we are comparing an island of approx. 11,000,000 habitants to massive powers. That shows that even though Cuba is a poor country, it has potential.
Posted by: Peace | 2008-02-12 8:24:02 PM
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