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Monday, December 10, 2007

Segregation by choice

When it comes to the education system, I'm against a monolithic, one-size-fits-all system that ends up putting too much power in the hands of the big teachers' unions, and I'm all for choice, choice, choice.

That's why I support a voucher system and public funding of independent schools or, failing that, comprehensive reforms to allow parents and trustees to set up alternate schools within the public system.

So, naturally enough, I also support the proposed blacks-only school in Toronto. Or do I? As you can see in my weekly Face to Face debate column in the Tri-City News, I'm a very cautious supporter of the concept. I suspect, however, that the many caveats I placed on my support would, essentially, torpedo the plan.

My debating partner, Mary Woo Sims, also has a great many concerns about the planned school, but her published position does not reflect the fact that, in e-discussing this subject before we went to our corners and wrote our pieces, she told me, "I'm OK with black-only schools but am worried what this means to a generation like mine and the one before it who opposed school segregation."

Nevertheless, her piece in yesterday's paper seems entirely opposed to the concept--an apparent change of heart that actually makes for better conflict in our "debate."

Posted by Terry O'Neill on December 10, 2007 in Current Affairs | Permalink


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Zebulon Pike is going to just love commenting here!

Posted by: obc | 2007-12-10 11:35:59 AM

Segregation is no choice. It is another form of oppression. How can anyone even think that this idea could ever work?

It's fair to say that Toronto's reputation as a tolerant, multicultural city has ended. It is now a bigoted, divided city. Jane-Finch area should be renamed Soweto.

Mary Woo Sims said it perfectly in her column:

"In 1935, W.E.B. DuBois, the black sociologist and civil rights activist, wrote that what his community needed was neither segregated schools nor mixed schools. What they needed was a good education."

Why is it so hard for Ontarians to see this? They always talk about education yet never act on it. Pay up or shut up. Pathetic.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2007-12-10 12:13:08 PM

In Nova Scotia in 1940 there were totally segregated Black Schools that lasted until long after the end of World War II. Black Nova Scotians were not provided with the same standard of compulsory education as the non Black population because Black teachers were not allowed to attend the Provincial Schools training resource,the Normal College at Truro
or any High School,College or University consequently the "Teachers" were equally as ignorant as their Students. No Black Nova Scotian was able to join any Political Party until early
in the nineteen nineties. Halifax Nova Scotia was founded in 1749 as a British Naval Base to protect trans Atlantic British Commercial shipping whose principal cargoes were Black Slaves. Only a fool like McGuinty recalling the racial bigotry of his political Party's historic past would advocate segregated seperate schools. Ontario unfortunately
deserves a fool like McGuinty the Bigot. During World War II in Halifax there were no Black Sea Cadets,few if any Air Cadets or Army Cadets.There
were no Black athletes until late in the nineteen fifties. One would never see a Black Nova Scotian in a Roman Catholic Church in Halifax Nova Scotia.
None of you know what segregation means until you see it first hand.But Ontario voters will re-elect that fool McGuinty at the first opportunity.Macleod

Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-12-10 12:31:09 PM

Give the parents a Voucher and let them choose the school of their choice. After all it is their children so they should be allowed to choose their education.

Posted by: Stephen J. Gray | 2007-12-10 12:47:26 PM

"After all it is their children"

. . . and THEIR tax dollars!

Sadly, Leftoids consider that tax money THEIRS!

Posted by: obc | 2007-12-10 1:09:17 PM

Segregation is the natural default position. It's de-segregation that is oppressive. These Toronto schools are, de facto, already segregated. White flight ensures it. If not virtually all black, they are a combo South Asian and black. It's blacks, blacks, blacks, not whites that are demanding black only schools. 50% of blacks cannot accumulate enough high school credits to pass grade ten. Jamaicans, 40% of Toronto's black population have a mean IQ of 72. 40 years of affirmative action in the US, costing billions, has done squat to lift black achievement levels. Black only schools will only change this by severely lowering standards.

If blacks want black schools, then whites should have white only schools and white only neighbourhoods. Ditto blacks, Asian, Jews, and Muslims. It's called freedom of association. Let's make de facto segregation de jure.

Posted by: Dj | 2007-12-10 1:20:03 PM

And so says the racist amoung us...
Beat ya to it OBC!!

Posted by: atric | 2007-12-10 1:33:03 PM

atric ~


Posted by: obc | 2007-12-10 1:51:51 PM

That's a little outthere, Jack. Do you have a link for that?

Posted by: reg dunlop | 2007-12-10 4:44:02 PM

On the other hand, I can't blame why some African-Canadians want to keep away from white people. Whites exploit and abuse them mercilessly, ignore their pressing issues like gun violence and poverty, while having Toronto's virtually all-white police farce harass them at every opportunity. Maybe with an all-black school, they'd have a fighting chance. But a fighting chance for what, exactly? Jobs don't exist for them.

The sad part is that for many there is no alternative. That is the tragedy that is Ontario.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2007-12-10 5:05:02 PM

Zebulon Pike - Jobs don't exist for them.

Well slap mah fro. Have any blacks ever been hired in Toronto?

Posted by: O'REILLY | 2007-12-10 6:38:55 PM

Not good ones that allow for a lifestyle comparable to white people. Even the poorest white person in Toronto is better off than a non-white.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2007-12-10 7:37:45 PM

Zebulon Pike - Not good ones that allow for a lifestyle comparable to white people. Even the poorest white person in Toronto is better off than a non-white.

I'm sure I saw at least a couple of blacks playing for the Jays and Raptors. Are they only paying them minimum wage?

Posted by: O'REILLY | 2007-12-10 7:45:34 PM

Those are professional athletes from the US who come to Toronto to play; they are not African-Canadians, who remain a brutally oppressed minority thanks to Apartheid Toronto.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2007-12-10 7:47:12 PM

Zeb ~

Playing with O'Gotcha is a fruitless endeavour. He just wants to show his superiority when actually he unmasks his inferiority - as a human being.

Posted by: obc | 2007-12-10 7:47:47 PM

Vouchers merely make private schools into public schools.

Most non-public schools in America are run by religious groups, and most of those schools are the remnants of the HUGE old Catholic school system.

Down here the "Catholic" schools are now nearly oblitrated because of all the NON-Catholics who enroll their kids in Catholic schools in order to escape the horrible government schools.

Vouchers absolutely destroy-terminate the religious freedom of the previously fine viable and strong private religious school system.

The FIRST dollar of "government" (i.e. taxpayers') money buys control, and government destroys everything it touches.

I thought you folks already had a system where the taxes go to pay for your "Catholic" schools (I can only immagine how pathetic a "Catholic" school, financed with taxes, would be in that super politically correct atmosphere). Yikes!

Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2007-12-10 7:47:49 PM

Zebulon Pike, the moron among us!

Even Israel is not immune to disproportionate levels of black crime.

"Now that they are felashas no more, how are the black Jews faring?

They are not starving; they are not oppressed; they have roofs over their heads. Some serve in the army; one was elected to the Knesset; but most of the 60,000 Ethiopian Jews -- more than half under age 18 -- are not doing well.

Not surprisingly, only about 12 percent of E.J. students make it through 12th grade, compared with 45 percent of other Israelis. Dropouts are on the rise, followed by youth gangs and petty crime."

Posted by: DJ | 2007-12-10 10:48:48 PM

45% is pretty pitiful. Private schools can do well but the real key, apart from good and dedicated teachers, is involved parents who apply discipline and standards to their children. Segregated or non will not do the trick.

Posted by: DML | 2007-12-10 11:43:29 PM

45% is pretty pitiful. Private schools can do well but the real key, apart from good and dedicated teachers, is involved parents who apply discipline and standards to their children. Segregated or non will not do the trick.

Posted by: DML | 2007-12-10 11:43:39 PM

A voucher system has a nice ring to it - but what exactly is this. Pretty much government money (about $4000) that is given to a school as a per student grant that allows the parents to send their young to the school of their choice.

If schools in Ab are to be elsewhere than in the Public System/RC Separate System (taxpayer funded) and running independently- then who pays for the building, the repair/maintenance, staff, and all the other overhead costs involved in a physical facility. Up to now it has been the independents themselves.

However, tuition can only be so high (in Alberta like 8 to 10K/student per year in some cases, as low as 4k in others), and some of the Charter Schools are now beginning to make noises about wanting more $ from the gov't to cover the plant et al.

It begs the point - why should gov't provide anything beyond the per pupil grant money to allow independents to remain outside of the Public/RC systems?

Posted by: calgary clipper | 2007-12-11 6:49:30 AM

>"An inclusive curriculum that honours and educates all kids about the contributions of black Canadians and Canadians from other backgrounds(read non-white), including Aboriginal peoples, must surely be part of the solution."
Mary Woo Sims

Do public schools emphasize the whiteness or Europeaness of the white Canadian contributors to Canada?

I think “African-centred alternative schools” should be situated in Africa not Canada.

As I understand it, schools that focus on a particular non-white ethnic group focus more on how that group was exploited or repressed by whites when dealing with 'ethnic' issues than on the genuine contributions to Canadian society that their particular ethnocentric group made to Canadian society.

But hey, if this brings about more white only "European-centred alternative schools" what could possibly be the down side?/

Posted by: Speller | 2007-12-11 7:02:50 AM

Most Blacks came to Nova Scotia when it was a British Colony which formed a major sector of the Trans Ocean Slave Trade in which British merchant shipping was the principal participant.We found out a lot about the historic Nova Scotia links while reseraching the history of vessels in the Royal and later the Royal Canadian Navy -RN Ships in 1810
for instance based in Halifax protected British commercial shipping. The NS seaport of Liverpool
had a large Shipyard whose principal function was to clean and cleanse "Slavers" the original process is recorded in the NS Archives in great detail. Many RN Frigates in Nova Scotia had been slavers -there were 75 of them in Halifax when the War of 1812 started, meanwhile crimes committed
by Black Nova Scotians in the nineteen forties was unheard of -in those days justice at the hands of the Irish Catholic Halifax Police Force was swift and ruthless. Black crime as evidenced today came with the creation of Ghettos after the evacuation of Africville. Noted American Activist Saul Alinsky came to Halifax and warned the Community of the potential increase in crime because of the creation of the North End and Dartmouth Ghettos
He of course was right -shouted down by US Black advocates of Affirmative Action (from Philadelphia) City of Brotherly Love. At the same time, Provincial Criminal Courts were filled with
Liberal patronage appointed Magistrates and Judges
Many former Social Workers. By 2007 Black Crime in Halifax NS has reached epic proportions and the level of violence equals the scabby City of Toronto, The Irony is the NS Liberal Party which had a policy of segregating all Black Communities have in their quest for divine foregivenss allowed
the Black hoodlums free rein - MacLeod

Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-12-11 9:02:05 AM

If Canada had been settled by African immigrants, it would be a model of African culture.

Enough said.

Posted by: dp | 2007-12-11 9:03:25 AM

. . . and if my grandmother had testicles, she'd be my grandfather.

Posted by: obc | 2007-12-11 9:05:25 AM

"African Immigrants" the British and their Arab allies in the Slave trade would have taken "Canada"
away from them, and sell the entire population -Big Slave Deal in New York, one Canadian Black Slave free with the purchase of Ten. The Blacks who arrived uninvited to British Nova Scotia were intensely disliked and detested by the Settlers
mostly from the United Kingdom, who were there and later joined by many,many more, who had the same attitude, which still exists in many areas, and in
my opinion will never change despite what the bullshiting Politicians say. Macleod

Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-12-11 11:36:38 AM


I once had car trouble in North Preston. It gave me a sense of what it must be like to be the wrong colour, and outnumbered. Getting up every morning with that feeling can't be easy.

Kirk Johnson turned that feeling into something positive. He is a very nice young man who made it to the olympics. After spending some time in the US he returned to Halifax thinking he would finally get some respect. Not from the Halifax police it seems. I was very pleased to hear that he's won his lawsuit.

There's no doubt that black crime is on the rise, but I'll bet that most of it is from African and Jamaican immigrants. Even success doesn't appear to stop them from a tendancy toward violence. Most of the fourth generation blacks in Canada would agree with me.

Posted by: dp | 2007-12-11 1:06:12 PM

Speaking of Olympians, what happens to them after they come home. There were several black olympic boxers from Halifax. You'd think they could run for public office, or become TV personalities. So what happened to them?

Compare that to the white Olympic boxer from Halifax. He gets to hang out with Russel Crowe in Australia. I've seen him fight, and believe me they could have found a better technical advisor for a boxing movie.

I've been called a racist on several occasions, but when you eat the same dirt as the family down the road for a few generations, colour tends to be less noticable.

Posted by: dp | 2007-12-11 1:22:40 PM

There are few if any Black Immigrants from Africa
or Jamacia in Nova Scotia, local Blacks do not want them nor would they assimilate with them.East Preston is the focal point of some crime but the
young Blacks in the Prestons focused on being Pimps. Most violent crime comes from the Halifax Ghettos
and their casual undisciplined drug related life styles. A local Professor has published a Book on Ghetto "names" and the effect of those "First names" like Kayshon,and Rayette,which immediately identify the individual as a Black Ghetto raised
kid -if you known the North End of Halifax like we do, you can instantly identify a Balck Family by thier Surnames, they get trapped.Lack of family values and strenghts in relationships is the major problem, the young hoodlums go out of control without defined family values. Some years ago active Black Baptist Ministers induced significant changes in attitudes because of the strengths of
their characters. Senator Donald Oliver's late Father was one of them. Later when Saint Mary's University opened their doors to Black Students, they made their marks on the football fields and Basketball Courts, sadly Hockey was closed to many of them -until NB Native Willie O'Ree appeared in the NHL - Macleod

Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-12-11 1:31:20 PM


When I retire in a few years, I plan to return to the Maritimes and try to change some of the problems I faced growing up. It will be a small effort, but every little bit helps.

My background in sports has shown me one way of changing the attitudes of kids, before they make bad choices.

Back to the original theme, I think segregation of children is the worst possible idea. For all the possible problems desegregation might create, the net result is going to be positive.

Posted by: dp | 2007-12-11 2:20:34 PM

"I think segregation of children is the worst possible idea. For all the possible problems desegregation might create, the net result is going to be positive.

Neighbourhoods don't integrate, they simply go black. Schools become de facto segregated because whites flee the 'hood. How then is segregation a bad idea? Desegregation, at the point of a gun, as in Montgomery, Alabama, has not improved the lot of black students. It only served to destroy white freedom of association and in Canada, white freedom of speech.

Posted by: DJ | 2007-12-11 3:58:44 PM

blah, blah, blah, says the racist among us.

Beat you to it, atric! :)

Posted by: obc | 2007-12-11 4:11:10 PM

What's the solution DJ?

It's only been 40 years since the Alabama event. The segregationists will soon be all gone, and the new generations will move forward.

The real culprit is out of control immigration. The white Bosnians are as big a problem as the black Africans, they just don't stick out in the crowd as badly.

Posted by: dp | 2007-12-11 4:55:21 PM

Racism in Halifax 1962: http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-96-479/life_society/africville/clip3

Halifax's high crime rate: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2005/11/25/ns-crime-hfx20051124.html

Halifax: Pimp capital of Canada: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2007/10/25/npf-strip.html

Canada's ONLY all black public school: http://nwes.ednet.ns.ca/

What Jack is saying above is, for the most part true, but the black population in Halifax is a well established community with a rich history. They have made great contributions to Nova Scotia despite what you may read in the baove links.

Posted by: Bluenose | 2007-12-11 9:52:49 PM

What Jack is "saying" is in fact "true" Black's have contributed very little to the Culture such as it is or History of Nova Scotia -notable Black Nova Scotians are William Hall VC,RN and Contralto Portia White
The first Public High School to assimilate Black students was Queen Elizabeth HS Halifax NS. My late Sister was in charge of the Remedial Training resources of QEH whose Black Students were forced by legislation to attend High School -mostly to keep them on a straight and narrow path. Despite the opportunity presented many of them ended up in what my Father and his ex RCMP Friends called the
Federal Resource at Dorchester NB -several went on to become outstanding athletes at SMU and Acadia
but they all came to my Sister's funeral.RCMP Veterans thought that Black Hoodlums should be shot dead on sight. Blacks have never and will never be accepted as equal members of the Nova Scotia Liberal Party thanks to the career of the first Black MLA who progressed to be the most incompetent Minister of Environment in Canada.On
the whole Blacks have been a burden on the taxpayers of Nova Scotia.In order for some to become graduates of Dalhousie Law School the venerable academy of legal training was politically required to lower it's standards which
caused and continues to cause consternation in the
Judicial process of Nova Scotia. "Bluenose" whatever that is, expresses profound ignorance

Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-12-12 6:10:03 AM

Jack, your comments got me thinking about contributions to Nova Scotia society. I was born and raised in NS, and I'm hard pressed to come up with any great contributions made by Nova Scotians of any race. Most successful Nova Scotians left the province as soon as they saw an opportunity. I don't want to sound sarcastic, but most of the people I grew up with who stayed are now a burden on the taxpayers.

When you talk about burden to taxpayers, you could easily extrapolate the phrase to apply to all Nova Scotians as a burden to Canadian taxpayers. Other than a couple of guys named Stanfield and Sobey, most successful maritimers tend to hit the road in search of a better business atmosphere.

Your knowledge of maritime history is impressive, so please prove me wrong and give me some examples.

Posted by: dp | 2007-12-13 3:34:33 PM

dp ~

If memory serves, Nova Scotia provided the ONLY foreign born British Prime Minister - one Andrew Bonar Law.

Then again, I guess he had to leave Nova Scotia in order to serve in that post. :)

Posted by: obc | 2007-12-13 3:43:05 PM

I imagine Peter McKay would take exception, but here's a few other examples: They practically own the educational software segment of the Canadian software industry. There's the Chester race week regatta, which turns the town into the temporary home of most of the east coast's Old Money. They're pioneers in the recycling industry and states like California and Oregon are licensing technology from Nova Scotia. The reason that all fails to show up on the radar is their lack of any one blowhard poster boy or poster girl for any given industry, or a lightning rod Blog Of Rage like the WS to draw some attention. People just get work done out there, and let the mythology keep them off the radar.

But here's my list of Nova Scotians who made a tremendous contribution:

Nathan Smith of Tatamagouche.
Braun Scott Woodfield of Eastern Passage.
Paul Davis of Bridgewater.
Christopher Jonathan Reid of Truro.
Frank Robert Mellish of Truro.
Kevin Megeney of Stellarton.
Christopher Paul Stannix of Dartmouth.
Jefferson Francis of Halifax.

And while they all lived off government money, I dare say none of them were a burden.

Posted by: Pattern Recognition | 2007-12-13 3:55:38 PM

BTW I know that none of the above-mentioned were self-employed, but I hope Epsilon won't hold that against them.

Posted by: Pattern Recognition | 2007-12-13 3:57:58 PM

"And while they all lived off government money, I dare say none of them were a burden."

That's the definition of a burden! If they had anything meaningful to contribute, they should have done it on their own.

But I guess Leftoid theology does not allow for private enterprise and entrepreneurship.

Everything MUST stem from the nanny state - otherwise it has no value.

Posted by: obc | 2007-12-13 3:59:44 PM

John, I'll give you a few minutes to Google their names and then retract, "If they had anything meaningful to contribute, they should have done it on their own."

Posted by: Pattern Recognition | 2007-12-13 4:02:00 PM

Two things that are mutually exclusive: "lived off government money", and "made a contribution to society". If you live off government money it is your JOB to contribute to society.

I forgot about the $100 bill guy, Sir Robert Borden. His house is still a landmark on the harbour tour.

Posted by: dp | 2007-12-13 4:04:30 PM

"If you live off government money it is your JOB to contribute to society."

That pretty much sums it up, dp - but Leftoids cannot fathom that concept.

Posted by: obc | 2007-12-13 4:11:13 PM

obc, you said "That's the definition of a burden! If they had anything meaningful to contribute, they should have done it on their own." You said our soldiers are a burden and don't contribute anything meaningful to society. Now feel free to go all Clinton/Chretien on us and do some acrobatics to explain how "burden" is really a neutral term, but the fact is, you let us know how you really felt.

Posted by: Pattern Recognition | 2007-12-13 4:16:59 PM

PR ~ You ALMOST made sense in your last missive.

Now put down that doobie, and try again.

Posted by: obc | 2007-12-13 4:20:15 PM

And now you've deliberately passed on two opportunities to either retract or clarify. OBC thinks our troops are a burden on society for living off of government money, and because they're just doing their job they don't make meaningful contributions to society. These are his words. No retraction or clarification. Just the accusation that I'm on drugs. Oddly, if I were on drugs you'd think I'd get the text or the order of his statements out of whack, but I didn't. Hm.

Not necessarily out of character for someone using a nickname build out of the initials of presidential assassins. But still, disappointing. I thought only 'leftoids' bashed our soldiers. Perhaps OBC is a Moby?

BTW in case someone retroactively cleans up the record I've PDF'ed the whole thing.

Posted by: Pattern Recognition | 2007-12-13 4:27:07 PM

You have to admit that obc is consistent.

While we're on the subject, and you brought soldiers into the argument, I have a beef.

Ever since 9/11 we've been told over and over that cops, firemen, soldiers, etc. are heroes to be considered a step above the rest of us. This is another form of segregation that could lead down a slippery slope. The increasing use of Tasers on people who simply disagree with a traffic cop is not my idea of an orderly society. These people work for us, and we call the shots. Putting them on a pedestal was a bad idea.

Posted by: dp | 2007-12-13 4:27:52 PM

reading the posts here is infinitely more fun than TV. i am glad i have discovered the "shotgun blog"

Posted by: Russ | 2007-12-13 4:30:10 PM

Russ ~

If there's a sporting event on TV, you can do both! :)

Posted by: obc | 2007-12-13 4:31:24 PM

DP, I agree, venerating soldiers just for being soldiers is silly. All I said was that they made a tremendous contribution, disproportionate to any for their training.

Posted by: Pattern Recognition | 2007-12-13 4:32:34 PM

Edit: ...any [cost] for their training.

Posted by: Pattern Recognition | 2007-12-13 4:33:36 PM

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