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Friday, November 16, 2007

Robert Dziekanski and the RCMP

Once again, of course, we see in the case of the RCMP and Robert Dziekanski an example of how, when taken out of context, a short video can have a galvanizing effect upon public opinion.  I’m not a law enforcement officers – nor have I received law enforcement training.  But I do have common sense and, unlike many people, I believe that I have the ability to separate logic from emotion.

Is it a tragedy that Robert Dziekanski died?  Of course it is.  Should we blame the RCMP members in question for what happened?  I believe that we should not.

Watch the whole YouTube video – not the short bits that have been played elsewhere.  In this case, a clip without context – and without careful viewing – is meaningless.

In this case, the facts are these: the RCMP was called to respond to a case of a man who appeared to be dangerously out of control.  Again, watch the whole video.   The man is behaving in an extremely erratic fashion, waving what appears to be a table around and throwing items – presumably other people’s property, I might add – to the ground.

Airport security is called to respond.  They quickly conclude that the situation is beyond their pay grade and call for further help.

The RCMP members arrive at the scene.  They are confronted by a violent and obviously out-of-control man.  When confronted by them, he remains confrontational.  According to the RCMP – and there seems to be no reason to disbelieve them on this point – he initially responded and the grabbed a stapler.  That’s consistent with what is seen on the video.

At that point – in that split second – the police officers made the decision to use their Tasers.  Some question that decision, which is their right.  But I think that, frankly, it is simply beyond dispute that – at the point the RCMP arrived and confronted the man – that the use of force to subdue him was necessary.

Now, of course, some might ask why actual physical force was not used.  And, within the context of this discussion, two words should obviously be called to mind: Rodney King.  The police are, quite understandably, hesitant to use their batons to administer beatings to people – even abundantly necessary beatings – for the obvious reason that someone may be filming and that fifteen out-of-context seconds might then be endlessly replayed on the news.   Of course, the risk to the members involved might also be added to that mix – but I personally have little doubt that the move towards the extensive use of Tasers, pepper spray, and so forth by law enforcement is directly related to the desire to avoid the highly unphotogenic results of the traditional beating.

And anyways, based upon his actions, there is little reason to believe that a single blow would have been enough to subdue this man.  Based on what I’ve seen, the only way to subdue him through the route described would have been either to wrestle him to the ground and hold him there – something which could have been equally fatal and potentially injurious to the RCMP members – or to beat him unconscious.  Or perhaps both.

I’m no shill for the police.  Anyone who knows me knows that.  I’m not blind.  I know that those who enforce the laws are merely human.  As it happens, I disagree with a great number of the laws of the land and, in general, feel that the police would be better off finding other things to do than much of what they do on a day-to-day basis (I’m talking, mostly, about various forms of annoying traffic enforcement here and the like). 

But, at the same time I believe that it is vitally necessary for us to defend the guardians of society when they require it.  These RCMP members responded appropriately to a split-second problem that confronted them.  They did their jobs.  To demand that they be punished now, to salve the public conscience, is frankly obscene.

No, what blame there is to be laid here must be apportioned elsewhere.

Perhaps some rests with Customs.  Maybe some with the airport.  Though, I might add, that those whose knees might jerk at the airport for not being able to instantly translate this fellow’s words ought to contemplate the cost of keeping translators for every conceivable language on staff.

While we’re at it, we might also ask some other hard questions.  For example – I would be curious to know why, exactly, a forty year-old man who didn’t speak a single word of English was immigrating to Canada to live with his mother.  While Mr. Dziekanski may well have been a kind and good man, he doesn’t exactly seem to fit the profile of someone who would be high up the list of people this country’s economy required.  Perhaps it might be that some special circumstances underlay his arrival here.   But I have no knowledge of any.

I would also add that, as hard as it is for some to hear, a great deal of the blame for what happened must fall upon Mr. Dziekanski.  It is taking multicultural naiveté to the absolute extreme to argue that, simply because this man found himself in a foreign airport in a frustrating situation, he was thereby excused from all norms of civilized behaviour. 

We have reason to be sad when someone dies in circumstances such as these.  But we should not rush to judgement against the police nor should we take leave of our own senses in an orgy of compassion.

Posted by Adam T. Yoshida on November 16, 2007 in Current Affairs | Permalink

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Comments

Lady - please do not have an aneurysm!! You go right off the deep end at the mere mention that PERHAPS a little common sense in this 'oh! so self rightous politically correct, intolerant country' would go a long way!
As an ex smoker you should know that when you were stressed- in the past, of course, when you were a misguided, filthy, tobacco smoker- the first raging thought was to have a cigarette! Smoking has the effect of removing a person from a situation for a few moments to enable people to think.
Did you never wonder why Winston Churchill smoked? Oppenheimer smoked and most WWI and WWII soldiers smoked; sometimes these people questioned themselves and produced stress in their lives. Hitler, the self righteous, never questioned himself - he did not smoke and he banned smoking in Germany. Hitler said only "Jews, Indians and loose women" smoked.
In a free nation people smoke or do not as they choose, you choose what activity you wish on your OWN property. In Poland there was no private property in the past - every space was public property so no one cared about anything. People smoked and tossed garbage everywhere (much like they do here since the new smoking bans reared up - butts all over!) Unhappy Russian soldiers would have never honored a Polish citizen's home or building by not smoking because they were requested not to - same as the German soldiers who choose to smoke everywhere but in the presence of Hitler or his thugs. It is a two edged sword Lady!
BTW, I do not approve of socialized medicine, I don't go to MDs unless I get run over by a vehicle and have 9 bones broken and a concussion. I was NOT a smoker at that time so my 3 weeks in hospital was not on the tab of 'don't -treat- smokers- on- my- dime' people like yourself. Were you a smoker in 1972? If so, I was paying for you at that time. The accident I was in was hit-and-run, the Dipper govn't that enforced socialistic medicine did NOT help me recover - I paid my physiotherapist out of my own pocket - or find the drive by thug who ran into me - unlike Arar they didn't give me any money for my discomfort and they did not repay me the money my attempted murderer stole from my purse (he/she thought that I was dead). I think the whole establishment was hoping that I would die and save them further $$ and trouble. The wish of others did not come true - here I am still squawking, still using natural medicine- at my own expense - to cure my ills - no cancer in my body, 30 years later - go figure huh?!! What does your own medical record look like?
You state that I am a 'whiner' because I have compassion for the 'wrong type'. I think you might be a pot calling me (the kettle) black.

Posted by: jema54j | 2007-11-16 3:53:09 PM


Robert Dziekanski was a terrorist and he got exactly what he deserved.

Posted by: Will Williamson | 2007-11-16 4:28:35 PM


A fact that seems to have gone missing in this story and on this thrread is that the man had picked up a stapler and was holding it when he was jolted. I know that the bleeding hearts will laugh at the possibility that a stapler could actually be used as a weapon,but it can . Just like an ashtray(smokers and non-smokers take note)is only an ashtray until someone goes up the side of your head with it.This was not a poor.distraught,gentleman who just needed a coffee,cigarette and a hug.This was a violent,irrational,armed criminal. Yes,he had a very bad day,but that does not give him a pass on acting in a civil manner.

Posted by: wallyj | 2007-11-16 5:00:39 PM


jema54j,

I don't care whether you smoke, or anybody else smokes--so long as you don't make me pay for it--and you don't hurt other people with it, by it, through it, or otherwise whatever other behaviour you say it causes you to do.

I smoked, and it was good. I quit because the damage out weighed any benefit I assummed I had when I was stupid enough to say to myself that I would not get addicted--and it looked cool.

And, smoking is not an excuse for bad--let's say dangerous behaviour.

Could you imagine a world where people used that for other crimes?

Could you imagine a really serious psycho saying to a judge after he rapes and kills a 14 year old girl, "Your Honour, my behaviour is regretable--however I just quit smoking, and I was stuck in a line-up for hours--and not permitted to smoke, and I saw this young girl go into a room by herself, and I just had to..."

Sounds rediculous now doesn't it?

Posted by: Lady | 2007-11-16 7:22:12 PM


wallyj,

Do you suppose 4 young strong men could not have taken a stapler out of this man's hand, without killing him?

Are they not trained?

Posted by: ds | 2007-11-16 7:29:44 PM


Hi wallyj,

I hadn't heard that...I'm watching the video at 5:19, and he doesn't have anything in his hands that I can see. He holds his hands up and walks away from the cops, and backs up to a window, and is tased at 5:29. I don't see a stapler, unless he picked one up when he was obscured by glare during those ten seconds. If he did that would certainly change the situation.

But he sure isn't behaving violently or irrationally at 5:29, and in fact seems to calm down when the cops arrive at 5:10.

Aaargh...I don't know. Nobody could deny the right of the officers to preserve their own safety in the course of doing their job, or that the man had shown that he was capable of violent and irrational behaviour...but it's hard for me to accept that at the time they confronted him their first and only option was a 50,000 volt taser.

Years ago, before tasers had even been invented, I worked at the old Benlamond Tavern, and just about every weekend, cops had to arrest seriously belligerent, violent drunks. Nobody was killed or even hospitalized that I know of, and they often were resisting arrest. This guy was just standing there.

Posted by: Darrell | 2007-11-16 7:31:23 PM


Dear Yoshi,

Try removing your head from your ass and taking a look at the real world for a change! NOTHING justified tasering Robert Dziekanski - NOTHING! Are you so pathetically tunnel-visioned that you didn't see him putting up his hands in a purely non-combative fashion? He did that, he walked away from the cops who were intent on confronting him, and when they had him surrounded with the supposedly terrible threat of a stapler in his hand, they tasered him. I guess they were late for a coffee & donuts break, huh?

You are the lowest of the low, you scumbag. This man wanted nothing but help, and all he got was death. Why don't you get up and dance a little jig now since you're obviously overjoyed with the big tough Mounties' show of force?

Ever thought of your marketing your bullshit as manure? Maybe you could make enough money to buy a heart. A brain would be wasted on you.

Posted by: Billy | 2007-11-16 9:53:31 PM


This was one of the most heartbreaking things I have ever heard. It's not just the RCMP who behaved brutally, but all those people working in immigration and customs and the airport. What is wrong with these people that they could not have seen the increasing desperation of his mother and taken time to look into this? It reminds of of that old story about the woman in New York being attacked and everyone looking the other way, noone coming forward to help. The whole thing is a travesty. I hope that the people who are responsible for this feel ashamed for the rest of their lives.

Posted by: Rose21 | 2007-11-16 10:06:16 PM


Yoshi, you are a bloody idiot.

Posted by: Cynic | 2007-11-17 12:09:58 AM


Lady - your example lacks logic - if a smoker watched anyone go to an enclosed room in a public place that person would be going into that room for a cigarette!!
In this country, if the person had just quit, as our Polish gentleman in question had, they would be too doped up on drugs to be able to see or feel!! Maybe that was the problem; maybe this man took too many nicotine pills. Nicotine pills speed your heart up - that COULD be why he died when he was tazered. I hope, for the sake of everyone involved, that the autopsy will answer some of this questions.
Just a note for all who are quitting smoking - DO NOT chew nicorette, take Zanteck (poor spelling) and/or wear the patch at the same time. The combination will stress your heart and eat your liver. VERY DANGEROUS.

Posted by: jema54j | 2007-11-17 12:26:11 AM


I found this for the information of all concerned people - including you, Lady.

Overdosage could occur if many pieces were chewed simultaneously or in rapid succession. The risk of poisoning by swallowing the gum is small because absorption in the absence of chewing is slow and incomplete. The consequences of overdosage will most likely be minimized by the early nausea and vomiting known to occur with excessive nicotine intake. Should an overdosage occur the symptoms would be those of acute nicotine poisoning.Symptoms: Mild to moderate poisoning causes nausea, salivation, abdominal pain, vomiting, diarrhea, cold sweat, headache, dizziness, disturbed hearing and vision, mental confusion, and marked weakness. Faintness and prostration will likely ensue and hypotension may occur; breathing is difficult; the pulse may be rapid, weak, and irregular; circulatory collapse may be followed by terminal convulsions. Death may result within a few minutes from respiratory failure caused by paralysis of the respiratory muscles.
This is from the Nicorette website. I am not making this up!

Posted by: jema54j | 2007-11-17 1:49:48 AM


What mosty of you seem to think us your oppionions of the vedio matter. Trust me they do not. You can argue and cry about it, but the fact remains that the only people who's oppinions matter are those 4 officers. In Canada the level of response lyes with the officers percieved threat level. Even if, out of the 4 officers, the 3 could have thought there was no concerns but if the 4th using his trainging and judgment felt they were being threatened by this guy - that ALONE is reason enough to use OC spray or the taser. Now considereing the taser has been approved for use in the RCMP this is a tool that can be utilized by the RCMP if the officer chooses the situation dictates...NOT THE PUBLIC. So because 3 desk philosophers think this was awfull, means nothing.
So bottom line is you can argue about this until you turn blue but as long as one of the 4 officers felt threatened your opinions do not matter.

Posted by: SW | 2007-11-17 5:49:16 AM


sw,

Of course, one of the officers felt threatened, He had to from that day forward, no turning back now, I hope his LIES, deception and murderous act are served appropriately

Posted by: ds | 2007-11-17 10:03:14 AM


Just a thought. What are the chances that this man knew he had a heart condition? A 40 year-old man wants to live in Canada with his mommy even though he doesn't speak the language(s). Could it be for the health care? I think if he wanted to be close to mom,it would make more sense to have her go back to Poland. KHADR.

Posted by: wallyj | 2007-11-17 10:39:43 AM


Another related thought. If this man was subdued without the resulting tragedy,he would be ours to keep for years. Even though he committed crimes in the airport upon arrival,our liberal immigration laws would not allow Canada to put him back on the next plane. Fire away, moonbats.

Posted by: wallyj | 2007-11-17 10:54:18 AM


I watched the video again and that gentleman from Poland has all the symptoms of a person suffering from nicotine poisoning. The mother of this man said her son had quit smoking the day before he boarded the plane, he likely stocked up on nicotine drugs for the trip and when things got stressful on his arrival he took too many nicotine drugs. If he was treated with force in the holding bin flash backs to the Communist dictatorship days in Poland could have overwhelmed him.

People posting here denigrating this man and his behavior have never been to a Communist state, your judgement is that of a child who has never been out of the day care.

The first question for the inquest should be "were the police aware that this man had quit smoking the day he left Poland? His Mom has likely told him that he could not smoke in Canada so he had quit so that the people of Canada would accept him. If the police were not informed about the fact that this man had quit smoking the day he left then they would not know that he may be experiencing withdrawal and/or nicotine poisoning. Either explains his erratic behavior.

The msm will never mention this because it is not the kind of smear story they would wish to tell. The msm are rabid anti tobacco. The msm do not consider people who use tobacco human - certainly public compassion for a filthy smoker would be zilch - they might have to change their 'tune' on this one to remain PC. Watch this happen overnight if my theory is correct.

Posted by: jema54j | 2007-11-17 11:37:29 AM


Wallyj

When did it become ok for the RCMP to kill immigrants in the light of being opposed to immigration laws - and plead "SELF DEFENSE" CRAP?


Posted by: ds | 2007-11-17 11:43:04 AM


ds,Is that what I wrote? Read it again. If you still think I wrote anything about self-defense or killing immigrants because of our lax laws,I suggest you carefully copy my comments and bring them to an adult to explain the words to you. Jema,I know what you are saying,I doubt very much that anyone had any idea about the added stress that nicotine withdrawal or drugs contributed . Nonetheless,though it may explain his behaviour,it does not excuse it.I won't be holding my breath waiting for a mention of it in the MSM.

Posted by: wallyj | 2007-11-17 12:02:20 PM


wallyj:

I thoght the main topic on this post was about 4 of our finest THUGS not being able to brainstorm beyond murder.
You want to go on about the "WHAT IF" it didn't happen?
- He's was here for our health care?
- He would be ours to keep for years?
Who cares why he was here..the point is He was. And Isn't.

Wallyj, unless U are RCMP employed, be careful next time one approaches and you happen to be a little upset.

Posted by: ds | 2007-11-17 12:41:34 PM


Time to find an adult,ds.

Posted by: wallyj | 2007-11-17 1:02:14 PM


wallyj

Good Idea! You do that

Posted by: ds | 2007-11-17 1:40:42 PM


Billy: I don't believe he wanted help at all. A lady went up to him and he told her to go away. The RCMP is getting blamed here for the airport/immigration problem. By the time the RCMP got there they probably heard that this guy had been disrupting the airport for a couple of hours...they probably should have dropped him without the taser, but he obviously needed to go down, as he was a threat(CARRYING CHAIRS AND THROWING THEM)Hindsight is 20/20 and while it appears tasers are being used a bit prematurely, no one could expect him to die from the taser.

Posted by: Markalta | 2007-11-17 7:35:01 PM


TASERS DON'T KILL PEOPLE-PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.

It is generally referred to as Murder

Posted by: ds | 2007-11-17 11:46:12 PM


From what I have seen on the TV, the mother seems to speak fairly fluent English...and seems like she was waiting for her son at the gate for a few hours and then went home...why didn't SHE go to some airport authorities and do some checking and let them know the situation where her son could not speak English and was he on the flight, etc...
Perhaps I have missed this in the accounting of what happened but I haven't seen it anywhere in the reporting.

Posted by: Barb in Sask | 2007-11-17 11:46:32 PM


Barb

Yes the Mother did try several different avenues with employees too arrogant to walk 100 feet away from their station to see that her son was in fact in a distressful situation.

All one person had to do was walk throughh a door.

Disturbing the two had spent hours divided by only a wall...

Then another employee tried to page her son, paging system didn't work in the secure area he was in.

When there was no response the employee told her her that her son was not in there: in the computer, in the airport..nowhere.

Get's better, she drove all the back home to listen to a message on her machine telling her to go back to the airport-Off she goes just to have them tell her that her son was dead.

Quite interesting our national defense security couldn't wrap themselves around a thought of calling an interpreter once they learned he didn't understand english.

So they call RCMP-And 4 of our finest couldn't brainstorm beyond tasering him, tasering him again, then oh well one of us might as well sit on his head and neck for he appears to still be breathing.

Sad day for Canada

Posted by: Barb | 2007-11-18 12:08:25 AM


Thanks Barb. The other thing I'm wondering is regarding this Video guy...if the Polish fellow was at the baggage place for some 10 hours, how is it that the Video guy just "happened" to be there during the incident...was he sitting there watching all those hours or what?

Posted by: Barb in Sask | 2007-11-18 12:15:25 AM


Barb
The video guy had just returned from china. He got the scenes from a digital camera he had travelled with

Posted by: Barb | 2007-11-18 12:21:48 AM


Barb

I forget why but yes the video guy did have a long wait over for whatever reason, and used his personal digital canera he travelled with

Posted by: Barb | 2007-11-18 12:26:57 AM


Just a thought. What are the chances that this man knew he had a heart condition? A 40 year-old man wants to live in Canada with his mommy even though he doesn't speak the language(s). Could it be for the health care? I think if he wanted to be close to mom,it would make more sense to have her go back to Poland. KHADR.

Posted by: wallyj | 17-Nov-07 10:39:43 AM

In order to get landing status you have to have a medical exam (on your own dime, not Canada's) at a doctor specified by Immigration Canada. If he had a heart condition they would have found out at the latest there.

But I applaud your paranoia, after all with Michael Moore making advertising for the Canadian health care system clearly many more poor people who want health care will just come to Canada. Not too surprising really when you read the xenophobia here on this site.

Posted by: Snowrunner | 2007-11-18 12:16:32 PM


jema54j,

No matter what the cause of a person's violent behaviour--when police have to apprehend someone--it is not without some form of violence.

You have much empathy for the man--and since he died, he is the victims and tragically so. Howver, I ask you this. if the man had punched a police officer in the face and killed him--would you have the same reaction?

I highly doubt it.

Well, police officers have mommies too. And, they have families who love them too. And they are tasked with a very very difficult job--and one that requires they attend to the most difficult situations with people behaving in all sorts of different ways--including violent. The non-violent are the least of their worries--but still can be very stressful.

Although nicotine overdose or other drug useage could have explained his behaviour--it still does not excuse it. People, who take drugs have to be very careful--and follow instructions--and don't take illegal drugs--and don't abuse over the counter drugs--and don't mix alcohol with many drugs--and so on and so forth.

After all is said and done--what a person puts into their body is their responsibility. If the drugs they place into their bodies makes them behave in unruly ways--that require police intervention--then that is also their responsibility. Although I, as would be any person, am not happy with what happenned, I still will not accept that there was responsibility from the point of view of the man who died, for his bad behaviour--regardless of what may explain why he behaved in the manner to which he did.

Althoug he may well have been a warm and fuzzy person--he sure did not look like a warm and fuzzy person in the video.

If you saw the first part of the video--and not his tragic ending--I bet you would say he was a person who was acting very badly--a dangerous man--who had lost his cool (saying the least) and who was in need of some kind of intervention.

If you went to another country where the majority of people spoke another language--and if you did not bring at least a travel dictionary--to help you communicate--and if they did not happen to have someone around who could speak to you in your language--you would have to wait. For how long? I imagine as long as they required to find someone. You speak English--which is a language of business--where there are many people around the world, who speak English. Yet, the Northern European countries are not in the same kind of luxury as we are--so they cannot expect that they can go to other countries, and not have at least a pocket dictionary. It is simply not logical to expect that someone could go somewhere and not have some kind of translation device.

And, there are also hand symbols. He could have made symbols for the phone? Instead, what we saw in the video was a man tearing things apart--ruining other people's property. He had a temper tantrum in an adult male's body--and I for one do not see why people feel it is necessary for the entire country to have dropped everything to accomodate a man who is displaying very bad behaviour.

You seem to feel very strongly for this man--and I feel for him too--tragic death--but after the fact--and since you were not the one who had to deal with him in that state--it is easy for you to judge in that manner. I cannot speak on the police analysis--the police will do that--but from what I observed, there is a middle objective analysis, and without that, people are going to milk this for all the political motivation they have in the world.

Posted by: Lady | 2007-11-19 12:55:02 AM


Lady, Thanks for the response. I do not blame the police for this, given the terrorists running loose all over the world - the police are expected to 'control' every situation because the hapless citizens of Canada are now very reluctant to 'get involved'! Why is this - we are not cowards by nature , it is all the PC people. I would have offered Robert a cigarette if I had been in the Vancouver airport BECAUSE I have been to Poland. It is a friendly gesture there and a conversation opener. What kind of trouble would I have gotten myself into today?? Yet it might have prevented tragedy - I'd have been paying a $500.00 fine for my trouble!

What I am concerned about is the PC 'set up', in this country that makes situations like this almost inevitable. The fanatical anti tobacco PC is just one of the many 'silly' intolerant assaults on freedom of the people in this country. The long gun registry and the 'hate' for self defense is another. The results of narrow minded sweeping legislation is to make normal people criminals and to make people like you and I (who are on the same page about everything but smoking cigarettes, I think because I read your posts and agree with things you say) exchange angry words.

Divide and conquer - that is the leftest game!

The cigarette ban in Whitehorse has shut down restaurants and bars because people who smoke or know smokers (and like them!) now go to private homes to visit. The ban has shut down discourse among people - there was room for CHOICE but the intolerant antis would not even consider that some people might go bankrupt because of their intolerance!

I have never understood rabid intolerance; when I was a non smoker I never would have asked an honored guest to go smoke outside if they were visiting me. My Mom never liked alcohol but she would have never asked a guest to take their beer and wine outside!

I would not tell my fat friend not to eat ten donuts... - I consider all these activities private choices.

I went to Poland in 1983 Lady. It was still Communist - those people had a lot bigger threats facing them than second/first hand smoke! Grinding poverty was one of those threats, it would take pages to tell you of others. I know that most of the people I met were chain smokers. Poland was a very high tension place- everyone whispered - everyone was afraid that they would do or say something that would land them AND their family and friends in a Soviet gulag. People in Canada have no idea....

Yes, Lady I thought of this man with compassion because I have felt so guilty for being from a country that deserted Poland after the last war. Hitler and Stalin leveled Poland and slaughtered the Polish people while Chamberlain waved a non agression 'piece of paper' he had signed with Hitler. Hitler and Stalin obliterated Poland from East and west - Hitler and Stalin were allies in 1939 - while the west waited for Sir Winston Churchill and Antony Eden.
When the peace treaty was signed at Yalta, the Americans sent a sick man who wanted to go home and die (Roosevelt) so he would not back up Churchill against Stalin taking over E. Europe. M. King (Canada) wanted peace at all costs, he refused to allow our soldiers to help the Americans in the War in the Pacific - my Mom (who was in London with the RCAF) said the soldiers wanted to fight on and help the Russian people get rid of Stalin but the bigshots sent them home. The allies handed Poland over to Stalin to abuse for forty ++ more years.

The Polish airforce fought in the Battle of Britain - did you know that? So my compassion for the brave people I met in Poland is real - there were/are nasty control freaks there who were overly officious in laying down Soviet law to their fellow citizens - I hope they have received their just deserts - but the people I met were extremely kind to me; helping me in every way they could - I did not speak a word of Polish but communication is possible (as you mentioned) if a warm smile and a kind heart make a stranger feel safe and welcome. ( I was often afraid when I was in Poland because I saw people shot for nothing more than being on the streets after curfew, I was a nobody from Canada and felt very expendable). The hard faces of the Soviet soldiers did not have that look - my question is what 'look' did Robert D. get at the airport in Vancouver?

Posted by: jema54j | 2007-11-19 2:50:17 AM


Jema & Lady

U 2 are fairly messed up people. Our Canadian hero went to Poland and communicated just fine. Not logical to go to another country without a pocket dictionary?
THis is Canada!
Jema, did Poland leave U waiting for 10 hrs without food or water?
Lady just how long are u talking about when a person is expected to wait for an interpreter?

I don't know why I am even responding to this kind of idiotic point of view, other than the obsenity of it.

I suppose the two of you can justify the "Ian Bush" case, along with a man they just dragged out of a holding cell (drunk) dragged him to a back alley left him there to be found frozen to death.

My, my, my, the two of must be so proud.

Posted by: ds | 2007-11-19 8:22:53 AM


ds--you ever heard about Polish line-ups?

I don't know why I am responding to you--you are such an ingrate-lack-lustre moronic imbecile. Why, you have even out done Marc--who in comparison, looks like a genius beside your comments.

Why, you even put meaning into the term unintelligent grammatical correctness.

As for "pride", when the almighty was handing out that stuff--he saved a special purse for you--so you could live in essense like a heroine junky while envisioning yourself as the world high command BLAH-BLAH-blabbermouth.

NEXT!

Posted by: Lady | 2007-11-19 8:59:22 AM


Lady

I give up! Your defense is far too intelligent for me.

Posted by: ds | 2007-11-19 9:19:47 AM


dj; I drove through the customs to Poland. We were kept waiting 5 hours in a greasy green room without windows and with bars on the door . There was a filthy water fountain - nothing else.

Everyone in that room (there were about 10 of us) was smoking cigarettes. No one was talking but the Polish people in there offered us cigarettes and smiled at us making us feel welcome. One lady gave us homemade buns from her shopping bag. We ate her buns and thanked her with smiles and hand to heart gestures. Can you even IMAGINE that happening in Canada?!! Homemade buns from a shopping bag?

The Soviet soldiers did not speak English to us and they did not speak Polish to the Polish people. It was all Russian, all of the time....we just had to read the guidelines in our English Visa guidelines and hope for the best.

It is my opinion that Robrt D. was suffering from nicotine withdrawal or nicotine overdose - that is still my opinion. Any Polish person born before 1989 is accustomed to abuse by authorities.

Posted by: jema54j | 2007-11-19 10:49:09 AM


sorry poster ds, that dj was a typo.

Posted by: jema54j | 2007-11-19 10:50:35 AM


Jema

Quoted from Chicagotribune.com
"An autopsy showed no evidence of alcohol or drugs in his system, but was unable to determine a cause of death."

Wouldn't nicotine in overdose amount have been revealed as a drug?

Even so, I do have complications trying to comprehend that the immediate use of tasering is necessary-seeing this more and more everywhere.

Posted by: ds | 2007-11-19 11:09:50 AM


ds,

You did not make it apparent that you were debating--but you did make it apparent, that you were attacking in a rude and unprovoked manner.

Strange--when you get your own medicine right back at you--that you see it for what it is, however, you are incapable of seeing your own is precisely that--unintelligent.

People who are not familiar with front line interaction with derranged or violently unstable people, no matter what may well have been the cause, are useless when it comes to analysis.

If you are so good at what you think you saw--why don't you go and work at customs--a prison--a psyc ward--and maybe after a few years of dealing with people while they are off the handle--you might see a different view. Until then you are merely positing theory onto the real world.

Have fun while you continue on in la-la land.

Meanwhile, the report on the investigation, from experts in the field, will decide whether or not the police went outside their powers at the time.

Until then, your comments are nothing more than totally unclear, unintelligent, and adding nothing more than political opportunism to the mix.

Posted by: Lady | 2007-11-19 11:44:00 AM


I noted an instantanious reaction by the police twice, first at the scene at the airport and the second time covering up their asses by outright deception.

Posted by: Lucifer | 2007-11-19 12:38:40 PM


Alright Lady,

Perhaps, you should contact all these concerned departments and inform them they are wasting our tax dollars-because in your opinion our finest are justified.

"The investigation will include a probe by the Integrated Homicide Investigation Team in British Columbia, an independent investigation by the Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, an inquest by the B.C. Coroner's office and an internal examination of the RCMP's policies and procedures on Tasers, said Elliot."


Posted by: ds | 2007-11-19 2:43:15 PM


I think modern day police are trained to be fearful of aggressive civilians. We unpredictable civvies might pull a knife, or we might bite with our aids and hepatitis infested bodies. We might grab a stapler, or ashtray, and bash your head in. We are dangerous when aggressive, and must be subdued as quickly, as safely (relatively) as possible. We are a danger to ourselves, and others. CPR is a no no as well; can't touch bodily fluids and risk getting a disease.

This training is one way to look at the world, and it focuses on certain priorities. It is not the only way to train a police force, however. There are, perhaps, more enlightened ways. But with this current model in place, if you are a peace officer, you can't go against the force's guidelines by trying out your own personal "more benevolent" thing; that will just land you in trouble with your supereriors, your peers, and your union.

The good thing about the internet, is that events like these go viral, and it gets people talking. Talk can produce new awareness, and things can change. I'm not going to play the blame game, but I would very much like to live in a country where more energy in spent on figuring out how to avoid and diffuse violence. I see that as a worthy challenge that we Canadians can stand for.

Posted by: Harph | 2007-11-19 4:16:11 PM


"CPR is a no no as well; can't touch bodily fluids and risk getting a disease."

That's crapola. He wasn't bleeding. And most policemen carry rubber gloves for when they are.

Posted by: obc | 2007-11-19 4:19:46 PM


Harph

It is true, it is even visible in the video an officer wearing gloves that cover up past the wrist.

Also, when I was trained in C.P.R the fear of body fluids was the first concern they addressed.
Informed us that you would have to literally take in more of their phlegm than possible during C.P.R

However, any psycho's that may want to argue that, they also have mouth pieces for the feared.

Posted by: ds | 2007-11-19 4:57:56 PM


VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - A Polish-speaking man who was recently fired from his job at Vancouver International Airport says he was working the night Robert Dziekanski died and wonders why he wasn't asked to help.
Karol Vrba told the National Post he speaks both Polish and Russian and says he had stepped into the airport operations centre to pick up some papers he needed for his work.

He says calls about a disturbance came in as he was going out the door and only found out about what happened when he came back.

Vrba says he asked why he wasn't called to see if he could help.

He says he was fired almost a month to the day after the incident and believes it was because he complained he could have helped.

Vrba says he was told he was let go because he was unsuitable for the job.

An airport official wouldn't comment, citing privacy laws.

Posted by: ds | 2007-11-20 11:05:35 AM


Not too amazing i suppose that all the supporters of MURDER suddenly vanish when truth starts to surface and they are left with nothing to defend.

Still amazing though-Not to mention comforting

Posted by: ds | 2007-11-20 12:28:21 PM


SW: "Yep, I will just do my triple back flip head strike combo that everyone learns in the first week at Depot."

...no but you should have learned how to take a fellow out with a simple punch to the chest or use his weight against himself if he lunged at you. The cops didn't look too petite framed either.

Or take his knee out with a baton.

Not like this was a tight uncontrolled space.

How about the ol' twist the thumb/wrist back?

Basic 101 hand combat I learned in the Milita as a teenager.

You can do all the backflips you want, but you missing the whole point, the RCMP took the easy way out and made a terrible judgement call in doing so.

Correction, a fatal judgement call.

Posted by: tomax7 | 2007-11-20 10:16:21 PM


tomax7

Good Post to such a deranged support of murder.

But, I do believe all the supporters of this sickening act have been suffering from shock, since the government has responded to the majority of Canadians outrage.

I'll be surprised if you get a response from any one of them.

Posted by: ds | 2007-11-20 10:38:20 PM


tomax7

Good Post to such a deranged support of murder.

But, I do believe all the supporters of this sickening act have been suffering from shock, since the government has responded to the majority of Canadians outrage.

I'll be surprised if you get a response from any one of them.

Posted by: ds | 2007-11-20 10:38:33 PM


tomax7

sorry for double post, my pc messing up didn't realize it went first time

Posted by: ds | 2007-11-20 10:40:36 PM


...no prob, sometimes my Firefox does it also.

Posted by: tomax7 | 2007-11-20 10:54:40 PM



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