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Thursday, November 15, 2007
L. Ron Paul's Supporters Raided by FBI
Apparently the FBI and Secret Service has raided the offices of a company which has been selling "Liberty Dollars" and, more recently, "Ron Paul Dollars" allegedly backed by (or minted in) Gold and Silver.
Why? Well, this company was minting coins and issuing paper notes claiming to be "dollars" and which, at least in the case of the coins, might easily have been taken by individuals for notes and coins issued by the Mint or the Federal Reserve.
Of course, some will claim that these actions are no different than a company issuing gift cards or the like - as has already been attempted. This is utter nonsense. Companies which issue gift cards and the like don't specifically market them as a replacement for the U.S. dollar.
Neither do they, for that matter, sell them at a discount on a dollar-for-dollar basis and encourage people to make money by putting them into circulation.
Perhaps even more hillariously, given the intended market for these things, it appears that the minted gold, silver, and bronze coins were being told at markups of between 25% and 400% on the actual value of the precious metals contained therein. The only thing worse than a Goldbug is a stupid Goldbug and, apparently, these people were that in droves.
Now, Ron Paul's smarter supporters will attempt to distance themselves from such a disreputable operation. They can try and do that, of course - but, frankly, it will be difficult to with fifty pages of teeth gnashing from L. Ron's supporters about the raid. Moreover, any claim that Ron Paul didn't approve of or support this ought to be viewed skeptically in view of the fact that these people have been marketing these coins using his name and likeness since July at the very earliest.
Posted by Adam T. Yoshida on November 15, 2007 in Current Affairs | Permalink
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Comments
Why the surprise? Ron Brown is masquerading as a Republican.
Then there's this week's story of how over 500 stolen credit cards were used to make "donations" to this fool's campaign.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-15 11:49:38 AM
Ron Paul and Paulinistas don't deserve the attention they get and I am sure that he will drop off the race within the next few weeks. He is not a serious candidate in a serious race.
Posted by: Winston | 2007-11-15 11:50:57 AM
Winston ~
He should drop out - but won't. Megalomaniacs do not simply bow out - just like Kucinich will remain until the end.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-15 11:53:19 AM
The stolen credit cards of which you speak amounted to less than $3000 of the $4.2 million Dr. Paul received on November 5th. And he will not back down - not when his campaign's popularity is growing at a literally exponential level. Ron Paul is a serious contender in this race. Deal with it.
Posted by: Mokk | 2007-11-15 12:03:16 PM
Maybe Paul won't win, but the 6% of the Republican electorate that currently supports him [so far - it will probably go higher before the end of the primaries] is utterly lost to the eventual Republican nominee for this election cycle. No one - NO ONE - will go from supporting Paul to voting for Giuliani or Romney. So laugh now - I will dance on the grave of the Republican party later, and will laugh every day for four years when Bushite thugs whine about Hillary.
Posted by: Fluffy | 2007-11-15 12:03:47 PM
I doubt this is a true story. Private money is not illegal in the U.S. and has been in use for over 200 years.
Posted by: Jim | 2007-11-15 12:06:01 PM
So what, the GOP is DOA if you don't nominate Ron Paul. So when Guiliani or Romney or Huckabee is nominated and gets annihilated in the general election, I guess all the good little Republicans can say "at least I supported one of the good guys.."
The only question left then will be the direction of the GOP afterwards. Permanently pro-war? Permanently pro-Homeland Security/Patriot Act? The party cannot truly claim anti-tax, anti-abortion, small government. There really is little identity to the party and boy is it going to suffer.
Posted by: oilnwater | 2007-11-15 12:12:20 PM
The Ron Paul whackos found this story pretty fast! Expect to be deluged by many more as they "spread the word".
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-15 12:13:26 PM
What next?
The feds busing in the doors of Canadian Tire head office?
Posted by: set you free | 2007-11-15 12:13:41 PM
From my reaing of the article, it appears that the "Peace Dollar" is meant to be /instead of/ regular US dollars ratehr than actually /replacing/ the US dollar as legal tender (In fact the article states that they never claim it is "legal tender").
Maybe I'm deriving too much from that but I figured it was an important distinction.
Posted by: Juan Tolentino | 2007-11-15 12:17:23 PM
@obc
Don't deserve the attention they get? Excuse me? Ghandi once said "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." We've seen the first two already this year... now that his candidacy is becoming legitimate people like you and all the other neocons are starting to fight. Good luck keeping Ron Paul down... because it's not just the candidate that we support, it's the MESSAGE. His message is what's becoming so popular and is resounding with people from all walks of life throughout the country.
You're just scared because he has a real chance of winning.
Posted by: ixeos | 2007-11-15 12:17:40 PM
Every Gold broker in the world applies markup to the sale of dollars...
Posted by: Fritz | 2007-11-15 12:19:06 PM
Every Gold broker in the world applies markup to the sale of gold...
Posted by: Fritz | 2007-11-15 12:19:16 PM
<< He should drop out - but won't. Megalomaniacs do not simply bow out - just like Kucinich will remain until the end. >>
Why should he drop out? He has more meetup group members than all the other candidates combined, he broke pretty much all one-day fundraising records, and 1,000+ people usually attend rallies in whatever city he stops in, be it Seattle, Nashville, Philly, LA, Salt Lake City, Chicago, or Ann Arbor, Michigan. If his campaign is starting to decline, then he should drop out. But if you think that he should drop out amidst record-breaking fundraising, and what's it called... oh yeah, actual enthusiasm, then you should join our campaign that'll legalize whatever the hell it is you're smoking.
Posted by: Paul | 2007-11-15 12:21:06 PM
"You're just scared because he has a real chance of winning."
. . . just proving the case that all you guys are whackos. Last time we had a posting on Roo Paul, his anti-Semitic supporters emerged here on full display.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-15 12:21:06 PM
Liberty Dollars are 100% constitutional and are NOT illegal, whatsoever. It is a private currancy, totally backed by silver and gold.
The Federal Reserve "notes" in your wallet are the counterfit bills. Ignorance of the law and economics, does not replace true knowledge.
Get your facts straight.
Posted by: Being John Galt | 2007-11-15 12:23:58 PM
"Ron Paul?" who the hell is he? that cannot be his real name, I assume his real Given name is Ronald
or Ronelle -Ronny should vanish as soon as possible
as Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton goes on to become
the next President of the United States of America
-Paul woulda done better going by the name of "Pope Paul" at least that has some historic significance.
"Ron Paul" what an utterly forgettable name. The guy is now part of America's historic political past. Macleod
Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-11-15 12:27:13 PM
"The Federal Reserve "notes" in your wallet are the counterfit bills."
I warned you his whackos would emerge in full force. Be prepared for hundreds more - who probably don't realize they are posting at a CANADIAN blog.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-15 12:28:25 PM
So you like to produce smear articles? Your hope to make Ron Paul by putting an initial L. before his name to make him sound like the scientologist L. Ron Hubbard is utter nonsense. Take your smear campaign and smear it up your ass
Posted by: James | 2007-11-15 12:29:42 PM
Macleod... Do you have any 'real' argument, or are ad-hom attacks your version of debate?
Posted by: Being John Galt | 2007-11-15 12:30:18 PM
"Take your smear campaign and smear it up your ass"
Hurry! Call those fellows with the strait jackets! The loons are loose again!
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-15 12:31:42 PM
OH great, these paulbots need to be in prison. Domestic terrorists like Beck and self proclaimed Marxist David Horowitz said they are.
Ron Pauls plan is to allow the American people take care of themselves? What a bunch of crap, these are the same people that have voted for socialism and and now want to fund space travel through Universal Health care taxation. Give me a break, only Rudy can handle the new direction of the country, with a Iron Hand of control. no more of this freedom crap, we need a real leader, one that wants open borders and a sprawling military all over the world to protect Israel.
Long Live ISRAEL!!!!
Posted by: Rudy G. | 2007-11-15 12:32:01 PM
"it appears that the minted gold, silver, and bronze coins were being told at markups of between 25% and 400% on the actual value of the precious metals contained therein."
I heard somewhere that The Federal Reserve was printing on paper and selling it at markups of 100,000% on the actual value of the paper contained therein.
Posted by: Scott | 2007-11-15 12:33:18 PM
The Liberty Dollar is not a scam. Not the most efficient way to buy Silver, but also not a scam. I bought Liberty Dollars at a 50% markup once... for $10 apiece. Look where Silver is now. I still have them and I'm happy with my purchase.
Posted by: Ben | 2007-11-15 12:33:51 PM
I TOLD you his supporters are anti-Semites!
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-15 12:33:54 PM
Anyone who uses the worthless piece of paper known as the Constitution as a platform for President needs to jailed.
I like the way the current direction is going, I want free stuff, I want rich people to pay for my welfare checks, I dont mind having a few wetbacks in this country if it means I can be lazy. I still have 800 channel of cable to choose from and a McDonalds on every corner, I have my priorities right, you all need to get to work, I got things I need to buy.
Posted by: anti-Patriot | 2007-11-15 12:35:47 PM
"Be prepared for hundreds more - who probably don't realize they are posting at a CANADIAN blog."
Ah... that explains it then. You Canadians are relishing the fact that runaway inflation in the US is destroying the value of the US dollar vs the Canadian dollar. Of course, you want this to continue at all costs. You almost had me fooled, there!
Posted by: Scott | 2007-11-15 12:36:15 PM
hey, you managed to gets some hits to your site out of the deal. rock on, the market has spoken!
-constituent
Posted by: ryanhiller | 2007-11-15 12:36:21 PM
These whackos are foaming at the mouth!
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-15 12:37:18 PM
This is so stupid! I'm sure this has nothing to do with the actual campaign.
Posted by: Jerry H. | 2007-11-15 12:38:13 PM
Last time I checked, OBC, your Canadian dollars have been backed by nothing since April 10th of 1933.
Posted by: Being John Galt | 2007-11-15 12:38:42 PM
obc, Ron Paul supporters are not anti-semitic. We just don't think our country ought to send billions of dollars in "aide" to Israel. Take into consideration that the United States has sent more then 100 billion to Israel since 1949. Seriously. Meanwhile our nation has a 9 trillion dollar debt and a more then 50 billion dollar trade deficit. It is not anti-semitic to what to stop sending aide to Israel, it is common sense. It is what any true American would want.
Posted by: Ira Kaur | 2007-11-15 12:39:55 PM
The Internet is alive with the sound of music - rabid music a la Roo Paul supporters. Sort of like an athletic supporter.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-15 12:40:36 PM
"I TOLD you his supporters are anti-Semites!"
Okay... you keep saying this, but make no reference to any examples. So how are they "anti-Semites"? I'd love to hear your point of view.
Posted by: Scott | 2007-11-15 12:41:00 PM
Ira K ~
Then you missed all the anti-Jewish comments on this site the last time we posted a Roo Paul article. They were not anti-Israel but anti-Semitic. Your masks slipped off then.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-15 12:42:45 PM
Thanks for posting about liberty dollars! For real information on liberty dollars, your readers can check out http://www.libertydollar.org
I love liberty dollars! They have REAL value and are inflation proof, unlike your paper money. A government that forces it's citizens to use paper as legal tender, paper that has lost 96% of it's purchasing power, is insane to me. By the way, How is the dollar doing these days? Doesn't look good according to the news. Hey, enjoy your worthless money, I'll be circulating something with value in my community! And speaking of a markup... Have you ever seen those "Gold" coins that the US Mint sell?? How much are those? And what is their face value? It seems your government is the one ripping you off.
I ordered some of those Ron Paul Liberty Dollars, and the government has stolen them. They are criminals as far as I'm concerned. They steal a percentage of my paycheck through withholding, then they steal my savings through their inflationary monetary policy. I won't support criminals. I'll support freedom and Ron Paul!
Posted by: Jonathan Bennett | 2007-11-15 12:43:08 PM
It's unfortunate that those on this thread who disparage Dr. Ron Paul seem only to be able to use terms of derision and little else.
Are such individuals aware that this behaviour actually reduces any credibility they may have to other readers, except of course individuals who engage in similar actions.
Could you please provide specific policies suggested by Dr. Paul to which you take exception and why, or as your mother ought to have taught you, don't say anything at all.
Posted by: ariana | 2007-11-15 12:46:17 PM
So, why is this illegal, again?
Posted by: steve | 2007-11-15 12:46:24 PM
"The Ron Paul whackos found this story pretty fast! Expect to be deluged by many more as they "spread the word".
Whatever this Western Standard.ca thing is just dove into irrelevancy in the minds of every Ron Paul supporter who sees this unresearched, middle school level posting.
We see through those who would fancy themselves 'journalists'.
We are the intelligent voters. And the dumber among us are getting upset.
Posted by: Jay | 2007-11-15 12:48:34 PM
I would like to correct this story.
The concept of the Liberty Dollar is perfectly legal. They violated no laws. The company never said any of their products were were legal tender. And because of this, they could be used as people saw fit.
This raid is illegal in the same way the Iraq War, Watergate, Iran-Contra are/were illegal. Just because the government says something or does something, it doesn't make it right. The governments in the United States South made segregation "the law" before the 1960's. It was obviously against the Bill of Rights and obviously wrong. But the state governments fought to continue the practice. Does this mean governments can't be unjust, corrupt or even wrong?
Remember that money is just a means of exchange. This is important. In reality, you don't need a government to issue currency to use as money. You can use whatever people value most. In decades past, gold was the accepted medium of exchange.
When you control a money supply, you control an economy. The current establishment economists know this. Nobel Prize winner and renowned economist Milton Friedman proved this. The Treasury Dept and the Federal Reserve do not want people using their "own" money. They want people dependant on "their" money.
Posted by: B Reyes | 2007-11-15 12:49:00 PM
Yea, I guess I could've seen the .ca before I posted. Oh well, I'm sure Canada uses paper fiat money as well. Paper is not money.
Canada rules!
Posted by: Jonathan Bennett | 2007-11-15 12:49:51 PM
The entertainment value of these robots is priceless!
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-15 12:52:04 PM
Thanks for posting about liberty dollars! For real information on liberty dollars, your readers can check out http://www.libertydollar.org
I love liberty dollars! They have REAL value and are inflation proof, unlike your paper money. A government that forces it's citizens to use paper as legal tender, paper that has lost 96% of it's purchasing power, is insane to me. By the way, How is the dollar doing these days? Doesn't look good according to the news. Hey, enjoy your worthless money, I'll be circulating something with value in my community! And speaking of a markup... Have you ever seen those "Gold" coins that the US Mint sell?? How much are those? And what is their face value? It seems your government is the one ripping you off.
I ordered some of those Ron Paul Liberty Dollars, and the government has stolen them. They are criminals as far as I'm concerned. They steal a percentage of my paycheck through withholding, then they steal my savings through their inflationary monetary policy. I won't support criminals. I'll support freedom and Ron Paul!
Posted by: Jonathan Bennett | 2007-11-15 12:52:33 PM
Yeah, get ready for the whackos to reclaim our country from the braindead come election time. You may even push yet another apathetic voter to stand up to the blatant disregard to the rule of law and vote for Ron Paul. Keep the bullshit slinging...you have nothing real. Your articles are quite amusing, so have fun while you can. Quite pathetic actually. Maybe someday some of you will understand. Doubtful. Classic case of doublethink. So sad indeed. I pray for you, and i'm not even religious.
Posted by: Rich | 2007-11-15 12:54:55 PM
"The entertainment value of these robots is priceless!"
You insinuate I am not real?
You're a fool.
Posted by: Jay | 2007-11-15 12:55:13 PM
Ron Paul has no control over whether or not someone uses his name and issues Ron Paul coins. The founder of the Liberty Dollar is a Ron Paul supporter who apparently decided on his own to sell the coins and donate a portion to the Ron Paul campaign. Why would Ron Paul want to discourage an entrepreneur from finding a novel way to support him.
It's the same as the people who started the V for Vendetta money-raising campaign. They chose to use Ron Paul's name, without his permission, in order to gather donations.
I think the question to ask is why is the federal government attacking the Liberty Dollar at this time? Are they doing it to try to discredit Ron Paul? The company has been operating for several years, with impunity, until shortly after they started selling Ron Paul dollars. All of a sudden the company is raided and all of its inventory and bank accounts confiscated. Does anyone who supports Ron Paul in a public way automatically get put on an "enemies list?" As far as we know, Bernard von Nothaus, who founded the Liberty Dollar organization, has committed no crime. I don't even know if he's been charged with anything. His coins have been confiscated, but remember that under federal forfeiture laws, property can be confiscated without any charges being filed. All there has to be is the allegation of wrong-doing to confiscate private property. Since they confiscated all of the company's inventory or bank account, the company now may not have the money with which to mount a legal defense -- and, if so, the government will end up keeping the gold, silver, and cash without ever having to file charges.
By the way, contrary to what you say, the coins or warehouse receipts look nothing like any coin issued by the U.S. government or Federal Reserve. No person in their right mind would have accepted such a coin as a mistake. Also, there is nothing illegal against two parties using whatever they want to in facilitating a voluntary barter transaction. They could use the Liberty Dollars, cigarettes (as is done in prisons) or anything they want. As long as he didn't claim that the coins were legal tender, which he didn't, no laws have been broken. The real reason behind this is that Ron Paul opposes the Federal Reserve's fiat money system, as does the Liberty Dollar organization. The Feds haven't been able to figure out a way to silence Ron Paul yet. So, they're attacking his more outspoken supporters.
Posted by: Mketcher | 2007-11-15 12:56:15 PM
"and i'm not even religious."
We knew that!
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-15 12:56:15 PM
"Ron Paul has no control"
Is that like "no legal controlling authority"?
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-15 12:57:55 PM
Ron Paul drop out? Now that's funny! Especially since he will be the NUMBER ONE GOP FUNDRAISER THIS QUARTER!!! GOOD BYE GIULIANI!!
Posted by: Robert | 2007-11-15 1:03:46 PM
Number one fund raiser and number 11 in votes. LOL!!!
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-15 1:06:32 PM
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