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Thursday, November 22, 2007

If this is a priority for the Dion liberals...

I'd hate to see the stuff at the bottom of their list.

  --  OTTAWA  --  Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion has written to the governor of Montana asking him to commute the death sentence of a convicted murderer from Canada.


Posted by Neo Conservative on November 22, 2007 in Canadian Conservative Politics | Permalink


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Hang the piece of shit.

Posted by: peterj | 2007-11-22 9:48:35 PM


you didn't make yourself clear, do you mean deyawn, or the killer?

From where I stand that reference could mean either.

Posted by: deepblue | 2007-11-22 10:06:50 PM

And make it quick.

Posted by: John | 2007-11-22 10:07:08 PM

Is there anything a Liebral won't do for attention?

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2007-11-22 10:08:10 PM

I wouldn't put it past Dion to go out in the streets in the hopes of finding a frozen to death homeless child to blame on Harper.

This guy has nothing, zero, nada, sweet F all.

He is a desperate little wimp grasping at straws.

I like that about him.

Posted by: John | 2007-11-22 10:10:10 PM

There are so many decent law abiding people that could use a little help, yet we spend approx. 80 thousand dollars a year to house,feed,and entertain all this human garbage,each. Most of these people are not worth the crap they flush down the toilet,yet the liberals/ndp are begging to bring them back here.We have a full load of garbage in our prisons already.The victims would agree.

Posted by: peterj | 2007-11-22 10:28:58 PM

Has anyone noticed that the Liberals and the NDP have managed to get the ethics committee to pre-empt the inquiry that is being set up to look into the Schreiber-Mulroney affair? Apparently Schreiber will be called to testify before the parliamentary committee as early as Tuesday of next week.

This is a gift to Schreiber. All he has to do is make some further unsubstantiable accusations and he has a home in Canada for life. What's the betting that the Liberals, who've been in close contact with him for some time, are hoping that he'll thank them by trying to implicate Harper somehow? This is Dion, Rae and Ignatieff calling payback time for Adscam. Has our parliamentary system decended as low as it can get? Or do the fools and liars who comprise the Liberal front bench intend to utterly destroy the system as long as they can get Harper somehow?

I never thought I'd see such low tactics, even from Liberals. We need a serious look at what is really happening in OUR parliament. This is going far too far for the health of our society.

Posted by: Patrick B | 2007-11-22 10:33:27 PM

Deepblue............ Good point, now I'm not too sure.

Posted by: peterj | 2007-11-22 10:41:02 PM

The people of Montana have the moral courage to defend their society by executing those would destroy it, liberals do not have the courage to defend the only society in which they're allowed to exist.

Posted by: philanthropist | 2007-11-22 11:37:35 PM

We need to rid the planet of murders, child molesters and some other human garbage. We need a lot more jails to keep the violent scum off the streets. They will cost less to cage than it costs us to let them run loose.

Posted by: John | 2007-11-23 12:19:18 AM

Death penalty does not belong in a civilized society, regardless of what the hoi polloi might think. I am pretty convinced that also the US will abolish capitol punishment, probably in about a generation (20 years or so).

In this particular case, of course we should not bring this guy back to Canada.
However, since the official position of Canada (and presumably also the government) is that death penatly is wrong, then it would be appropriate to ask for clemency. (Life in prison is a better punishment in any case.) We are the little brother of the USA, and we do have the right to comment on their behaviour, if we so wish.

But I agree this is not the most important issue to worry about, and obviously Dion is doing this for political reasons. How easy it would have been for the CPC to have avoided this, had they followed my advise (see above).

Posted by: Johan i Kanada | 2007-11-23 4:30:15 AM

How can we expect to force the US or any State therein to apply our Justice to a Canadian who has been convicted in their country of double murder?

Dion and the Liberals are playing the only game they have at this point and it's pure GOTCHA politics.
They're flitting around like bees in clover trying to seize an issue, any issue that will lift them out of the quagmire they're in.

The whole Mulroney/Schreiber affair is nothing but a two ring circus. It's a disgrace to treat a former PM in this manner in the first place.
The Liberals and their minions in the MSM have been huddling with Schreiber to get his story and they're running with it.

Let's hope Mulroney prevails and sues the arses off the lot of them. I for one will believe Mulroney over Schreiber.

Posted by: Liz J | 2007-11-23 5:54:47 AM

I doubt that the Governor of Montana has ever heard
of Citoyen Dion and the "Official Opposition" and I expect the sentence imposed on the convicted Murderer will be carried out in accordance with the Laws of
the State of Montana. At the time our venerable national airline bought Aerospatiale Airbus commercial carriers there was great surprise at vthe annual Meeting of the Air Industries Association of Canada because both Boeing and MacDonnell Douglas
major airframe manufacturers were considered the favorites.to supply the $1.5 billion worth of new aircraft. But the fact is, the Airbus aircraft were purchased based on technical excellence and price. Martin Brian Mulroney could not ad did not influence the decision and if he attempted would have been laughed out of the room. in those days
Mulroney was considered a backwoods Quebec country hick,striving to become Lace Curtain Irish (which he did). Mulroney himself canceled negotiations
between Regional Industrial Expansion Minister Sinc Stevens and Thyssen AG Germany on the so called "BearHead Project" because the German company wanted to manufacture and sell their armored vehicles to South Africa then under International Boycott, a boycott led by Canada.
If ole Karl Heinz paid Mulroney for services rendered he got sucked in. This entire situation is causing devastating problems for the Liberal
Party of Canada led by a fool and comprised of fools. Lead shit disturber Thibault was the village clerk in an obscure Acadian Nova Scotia Village in the middle of nowhere, knows nothing about the international technological nor aerospace business. Laughing in Moncton. MacLeod

Posted by: Jack MacLeod | 2007-11-23 6:29:19 AM

Were this specific execution to come up in a leadership debate prior to a Federal election, I would hope Prime Minister Harper responds that Ronald Smith confessed to killing the two Native American men, thereby eroding the Liberals Aboriginal vote base.

Identity politics?
Right back at'cha Liberals.

Posted by: Speller | 2007-11-23 6:37:47 AM

Right, Speller, if the Liberals are out to play Gotcha politics we've got lots of ammunition to play "right back at'cha Liberals".

Let's have at them and their jailbird interviewer and head researcher on the their next attempt at Gotcha, Thibeault , may have wished he hadn't bothered with Schreiber.
Do we as taxpayers have to pay for the legal fees of Thibeault since Mulroney is suing him?

The Liberals are so in over their heads, it's a wonder they can sustain life.

On another issue, the climate conference in Bali has them all huffy because their critics aren't invited so won't be able to go and act up like bad kids and try to embarrass their own Country's government. They admit it, because they said take us and we promise to behave!!!!
What a pack of tools.

Posted by: Liz J | 2007-11-23 7:13:52 AM

Johan i kanada, et al of the naive set -

ONE THING that America did right in Iraq was to NOT interfere in the capital punishment execution of Sadaam Husein (why bother checking spelling?). The stark FEAR that such a man would ever be released from prison (by Hillary?) would absolutely prevent ANY resolution between Sunni's and Shia and Kurds and HUMANS!

Regarding capital punishment for "normal" criminals, e.g. murderers, etc.

Do YOU have ANY actual life experience with a murder? And a trial? And a sentencing? AND A PAROLE HEARING? And ANOTHER parole hearing? And ANOTHER parole hearing?

Who do you think gets to attend parole hearings?

Who do you think gets to relive the terror of their son or daughter or wife or mother or father or brother or sister or friend, going through it all AGAIN and again and again, as somebody with "aspirations" (political? or perhaps just stupid NAIVE), MIGHT JUST LET THE BASTARD GO FREE!

Johan i Kanada -

If you have no experience, then exercise your imagination.

The Roman Catholic Church has the concept of opposing capital punishment IF THE SOCIETY CAN BE FULLY PROTECTED FROM THE CRIMINAL, e.g. life in prison totally under guard. So, when a prisoner, a lifer, kills a prison guard, then the Catholic Church (even the phoniest of um) says that the prisoner must be put to death.

That is the very narrow view which totally ignores the continuing evil and fear that the family of the victim suffers for the entire life of the murderer.

There are MANY other aspects of this question, all of which argue FOR capital punishment. I just thought that I'd "share" the one I am personally familiar with.

Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2007-11-23 7:29:47 AM

>"However, since the official position of Canada (and presumably also the government) is that death penatly is wrong, then it would be appropriate to ask for clemency."
Johan i Kanada | 23-Nov-07 4:30:15 AM

Well, Johan, this is a good issue to point up the difference between the new CPC 'Tories' and previous Canadian governments.

If the Liberals want to pretend that there is some sort of ideological link between the Mulroney PC government and the Stephen Harper Conservatives, the CPC's stand on this issue alone should help to put it to rest.

>"Death penalty does not belong in a civilized society, regardless of what the hoi polloi might think. I am pretty convinced that also the US will abolish capitol punishment, probably in about a generation (20 years or so)."
Johan i Kanada | 23-Nov-07 4:30:15 AM

Regardless of what the hoi poli think?
Don't EVER pretend to speak for or from a democratic position again, Johan, because you are truly OUTED by this statement as anti-democracy.

And the U.S. 'hoi poli' support for capital punishment derives straight from the Christian majority beliefs of American citizens, so if you're expecting the U.S. to lose it's Christian faith in about 20 years you'll be hugely disappointed.

Posted by: Speller | 2007-11-23 7:42:55 AM

Murderers should be put in prison for life, but not killed. Let's try and lead with good example, shall we?

I am not anti democracy (which is not a very good way to run a country, but the best there is). However, that doesn't mean the majority is always right, now does it?
The majority believes in catastrophic AGW, that doesn't make it right, does it?
The majority votes for robbing me of my well earned money and giving it to them, that does not make it right, does it?

(Come to think of it, perhaps enlightened despotism would be a better way... i.e. with me as the despot.)

Posted by: Johan i Kanada | 2007-11-23 9:34:10 AM

Btw, Speller, you mentioned the Christian majority: What ever happened to "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek"?

Posted by: Johan i Kanada | 2007-11-23 9:35:53 AM

I wonder how the left wing nut jobs praising Dion for this would feel if George Bush interfered in our domestic politics to try to advance his own agenda the way Dion is interfering in American domestic politics.

Posted by: john g | 2007-11-23 9:37:04 AM

>"Btw, Speller, you mentioned the Christian majority: What ever happened to "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek"?
Posted by: Johan i Kanada | 23-Nov-07 9:35:53 AM

"Thou shalt not kill" accurately translates as "Thou shalt not murder" which a state execution after a fair trial is not.
The same Pentateuch allows for capital punishment, there is no contradiction, only your obfuscation and moral equivalence on your part, Johan, where no equivalence exists.
The Bible also allows for war and to kill in self defence.

"Turn the other cheek" has nothing whatsoever to do with capital punishment for a capital crime, more obfuscation on your part, Johan.

As to "However, that doesn't mean the majority is always right, now does it?", the majority of people don't have armed bodyguards like the politicians do, so supporting capital punishment is also a vote for survival as well as a vote for justice.

I don't want to divert this thread to the topic of AGW, but it suffices to say that the Liberals neither enunciated nor enacted measures to meet Kyoto because support for the AGW leprechaun would drop to virtual zero as soon as the public found out what is required from them to meet the ideology with concrete action.

Posted by: Speller | 2007-11-23 9:56:27 AM

Three points. First, the Liberals did nothing on this file, despite being in government until 2006 and suddenly this is an inportant issue.

Second, previous governments, Tory and Grit, made representations for clemency in other cases, and they were all ignored, with executions going ahead.

Third, Dion again has picked an issue which Canadians don't care about, despite his belief he speaks for them.

Noticed Dion has made another spectacular tactical error with idea of defeating government prior to February 08 budget. That would be a good move (not) - all Tories have to do is leak some juicy details and make sure their budget becomes their election platform, with, of course, Dion standing in the way of tax cuts and this or that funding. Then, Dion has to debate Harper directly during campaign. Does anyone believe Grits would be that stupid? These guys are either kidding, or are living in seminar-fantasy world.

Posted by: Shamrock | 2007-11-23 11:02:47 AM


I think the "Kiss My" Grits do this sort of thing to keep from slipping into total obscurity.

Right now, these guys couldn't get arrested.

Not to fear, little Gritties, if the Mulroney Inquiry casts a wide enough net, you'll be wishing obscurity was an option instead of arrests.

Posted by: Speller | 2007-11-23 11:11:52 AM

As the issues panel on CBC Thursday night pointed out, the LIberals have on clear vision of what they stand for.

Since Mulroney pi**ed off enough true conservatives (the F-18 contract to Quebec being the final straw) and the Reform movement took time to build its brand, the Liberals became complacent.

They still held onto power despite internicene warware (Turner/Chretien; Martin/Chretien).

The point was also made that the Liberal level of support is near an all-time low and that support is mostly from habitual Liberal voters (I would guess non-thinking sheep) who put their trust in the Liberal Party to deliver the goodies to them at the expense of others.

It was the first time I'd watched the late edition of the National, but it was well worth the time as the panellists pointed out the obvious about the Liberal Party having not a clue what they stand for.

Therefore, the only thing they have left is dredging up the past and trying to exploit weaknesses.

It was an interesting segment.

Posted by: set you free | 2007-11-23 12:04:01 PM

Oh, yeah.

They panellists agreed that the Liberals fallback position was to defend the Charter, therefore their apparent defence of murderers somehow is a protection of individuals against the tyranny of the state.

I don't understant it. either.

Posted by: set you free | 2007-11-23 12:05:48 PM

Liberals failed for a dozen years to even try and bring this murderer back to Canada, but they did manage to convince Pakistan to free a leading terrorist. Hypocritical Liberals are nasty SOB's, freed terrorists go right back to trying to kill our troops and those of our allies.

Liberals don't care though since they would never put themselves in a position to defend our society.

Posted by: philanthropist | 2007-11-23 12:08:24 PM

Hapless Citoyen erstwhile "leader" of the fading Liberal machine is being manipulated by former flunkies in Chretien's PMO and wannabes) contract went to Quebec because both McDonnell Douglas and Northrop
Corporation (who designed the F 18 L Cobra and F18A
Hornet insisted on it, Bristol Aerospace Winnipeg lacked the technical skills and work force to undertake the work. Canadair Montreal, later Bombardier Montreal built Northrop aircraft F-5's
later the CF-116 CF 5. Skills in the real aerospace business are sadly lacking in most of Western Canada -fault of successive Federal Governments.Maybe Uncle Steve and his Bumpkins can change that. Macleod

Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-11-23 1:51:34 PM


Six or half a dozen, state execution or murder. There is some moral equivalence, of course, except perhaps that the state executioner is more of a coward. Kind of like a bully in a schoolyard.

On the other hand, for civilization to protect itself by locking up murderers (or state sponsored executioners such as Pol Pot) for life is perfectly ok. Fundamental difference, I am very surprized you don't understand that.

And, again, just because the hoi polloi screams for murder doesn't make it right. What does bodyguards have to do with anything?

Posted by: Johan i Kanada | 2007-11-23 2:29:47 PM

Typical elitist. Thinks he knows better than the masses and wants to limit or eliminate their ability to control government.

This is the problem with elitists. They think that governments exist to control the people when it is government that is the tool of the people.

You may not agree with the masses on everything. I know I sure as Hell don't. But I reject with all my being any attempt to remove their ability to control governments.

Finally we have a government that is respecting both Canadian and American democracy instead of one that respected neither.


Posted by: Epsilon | 2007-11-23 2:40:17 PM

Where was the Liebral Party when Zahra Kazemi was executed by the Iranian government? Why didn't they call for her release?

They managed to do that with Maher Arar!

Hypogrits for sure!

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2007-11-23 2:44:52 PM

Zeb ~

And let's not forget Mr. Sampson in Saudi Arabia - not executed, but tortured. What did the Lieberals under the Creton do for him?

Posted by: obc | 2007-11-23 2:47:43 PM

First of all, Johan, while all of us are capable of murder, we all have a right to life and the benefit of the doubt that we will not take a life.

A murderer, such as Ronald Smith, who confessed to taking two lives as Smith put it when he confessed, "Just to see what it felt like.", no longer gets the the benefit of the doubt and while he once had the right to life, his life is now forfeit by his own actions.

He is now condemned to death.

Do you think the two men who were murdered by Ronald Smith saw their death coming and that Smith murdered them bravely?
I don't.

It didn't even take the courage of Smith's convictions, as he had none, to do it.

But courage or not is irrelevant.

Executing a murderer is neither wrong nor murder.

Murdering innocent people who have a right to life and have done nothing for society to expect them to behave as a threat to the survival of others is wrong.

As to bodyguards: politicians wouldn't eliminate the death penalty if they lived under the same level of threat that the rest of us do.

The death penalty is a deterrent.

Posted by: Speller | 2007-11-23 3:02:18 PM

An executed man never kills again. An imprisoned one often does - be it a jail guard, a witness who testified against him (killed by an order to a friend on the outside) or other innocents when he is paroled - virtually no one dies of old age in prison.

Posted by: obc | 2007-11-23 3:05:31 PM

obc: it's fair to conclude that the Liebrals do only what is in the best interests of their party and class.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2007-11-23 3:05:41 PM

"Killing One To Save Many"


Capital Punishment: The debate's over. The data are in. The answer is conclusive. No, we're not talking about global warming. We're talking about the death penalty. Say what you will, it saves far more lives than it takes.

Even the mainstream media, loath for decades to treat the topic with any seriousness, are grudgingly coming around to the same conclusion. A good example is a piece this week by Associated Press correspondent Robert Tanner. In it, he notes a spate of recent studies that "count between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer."


Posted by: obc | 2007-11-23 3:22:17 PM

Zeb's "Hypogrits".

Wish I'd thought of that 'un!

Posted by: Harry R | 2007-11-23 3:23:35 PM

Zeb's "Hypogrits".

Wish I'd thought of that 'un!

Posted by: Harry R | 2007-11-23 3:23:37 PM

Even the Red Star can no longer hide the reality of DeYawn:

"Dion a drag on already foundering Liberals"

Chantal Hébert

Twelve months after Stéphane Dion's Liberal leadership victory, bewilderment about the result has turned into widespread consternation. In one year, the rookie Liberal leader has gone from prime minister in waiting to opposition leader in hiding.

These days, its brand name is all that is keeping the Liberal party afloat in the polls. In Quebec, where the Liberals thought they had hit rock bottom over the course of the sponsorship scandal, Dion is dragging them further down.


Posted by: obc | 2007-11-23 3:26:01 PM

I trust Dion made it clear that he does not represent Canada or Canadians in any official capacity.

Johan, civilised societies protect their citizens from murderers, not the murderer. By the way I bet you are a supporter of abortion. All the anti-death penalty crowd I know are yet supporters of abortion, which indicates confused logic. I prefer to save my compassion for the victims and expect the state to ensure that cold-blooded murderers do not murder again.

Posted by: Alain | 2007-11-23 3:29:02 PM

Alain ~

Perhaps you don't understand Johann. He gets to feel superior to us blood-thirsty types by opposing capital punishment.

He might even believe that rabid dogs should not be put down because that would constitute cruelty to animals.

Posted by: obc | 2007-11-23 3:32:39 PM

It is not a long shot that Dayawn would go out of his way to assist a murdering scum bag--after all, that is what the Liebrals have always done. Chretan went and helped the Khadrs--which is one of the main reasons what the Liebrals alienated our Southern neighbors. Had there been any backbone in Canada, we might have made a greater effect--as of such their effect was to make Americans glance and look away--as if there had been some bad smell for a moment in time.

Posted by: Lady | 2007-11-23 4:36:18 PM

I dunno, but I find it kind of ironic that in a country that finds that life is too important to use the death penalty, we have law enforcement officers implementing a death penalty for 18 people in the last few years using a tazer.

The dead by tazer didn't even have the benefit of selecting their method of trial or defending themselves.

What's wrong with this picture?

Posted by: rockyt | 2007-11-23 4:44:54 PM

I dunno, but I find it kind of ironic that in a country that finds that life is too important to use the death penalty, we have law enforcement officers implementing a death penalty for 18 people in the last few years using a tazer.

The dead by tazer didn't even have the benefit of selecting their method of trial or defending themselves.

What's wrong with this picture?

Posted by: rockyt | 2007-11-23 4:45:40 PM


spoken like a liebral.

You must go back to school.

You said, "we have law enforcement officers implementing a death penalty for 18 people in the last few years using a tazer."

If I slapped you in the face, and you died, is that the death penalty?

If you slapped yourself in the face, and died, is that the death penalty?

Maybe police should slap instead of useing the taser?

regardless, your notion of what constitutes of "death penalty" is mixing a function of making an arrest and one of the tools thereof with someonething that used to be handed down in Canada's courts--that is not.

You are so stupid!

Posted by: Lady | 2007-11-23 4:53:00 PM

I think most people in Canada support the death penalty anyway, and I think the "polling" on the death penalty is Bull S anyway...all the polls I ready are skewed toward the liberals...like 69 percent say they support it for certain types of serial killers but 48 percent say they dont support it in general...bunch of crap. Its all in the way the ask. We could use a few less of these skin wastes around here anyway...

Posted by: SW | 2007-11-23 6:06:48 PM

Dion is going to hang his hat on the death penalty debate and try to further tar Harper as cold , calculating and ' non - progressive '. The logical extension would be that he is anti gay , anti feminist ,anti day care , anti abortion , anti poor and on and on . What else can this jackass do ; he`s been totally flumoxxed and out flanked at every turn by the Conservatives and is desperately trying to display the mythical Liberal brand as the party of principles . After all , who cares about all this boring stuff like defense , border security , high taxes , when we can talk about principles and hug a thug. That`s what`s really important .

Posted by: daveh | 2007-11-23 7:12:33 PM

Using Dion's logic,if a man in Toronto kills his wife for having an affair and is found guilty and sentenced to 25 years,Dion would then have no problem returning him to his home country,if requested, where he may recieve 20 lashes and have to pay a fee to the deceased family?

Posted by: wallyj | 2007-11-23 8:41:05 PM

Dion is a lie. He is obviously trying to be a hard nosed Fiberal but he is really a book and study school professor. If his cronies had half a brain they would capitalize in his strengths instead of trying to force him into a strong leadership model that he will never fit into.
I agree with daveh, its like the Fiberals have a large wheel that they spin every couple of weeks with the old stand by liberal BS...yeah, this week its the Death Penalty, next feminists, next racism and the then the all powerful "Secret Conservative Agenda".

Posted by: SW | 2007-11-24 2:46:59 AM

The Liberals are floundering, batting the air, trying to grab something that will take the attention off their inept Leader and his band of buffoons and fools.

So far they've dredged up Mulroney and Schreiber,
the death penalty, the treatment of Afghan detainees, ongoing Global Warming and KYOTO bullshit, what's up next, Abortion?

The Liberals haven't a concern about any of these subjects, if they had they'd have done something about them when they held power for decades.

They're are the most shameless pack of hypocrites ever in the history of politics in this Country.
They have no moral fiber, it's all about power at all expense.

The money it will cost us to have all this Mulroney stuff dredged out to find out if Mulroney broke the rules on a $300,000 dollar cash deal with a piece of business like Schreiber who's in big trouble in Germany and on deportation list is a scandal in itself.

Now the Liberal led Committee is about to play games to keep this story going to try to smear this Conservative government which had nothing to do with it.

This country is becoming a laughing stock at the hands of the Liberals desperate to get back on the gravy train they've been so accustomed.

The Canadian people will have to get out en masse and give the Liberals a clearer message, total decimation, next time around.
We don't elect people to Office to feather their own nests and play Gotcha games to get and retain power. it's just not on.

Posted by: Liz J | 2007-11-24 6:01:07 AM

Well, lookie here:

"The death penalty's deterrence"

Twelve studies authored by professors from a number of renowned universities suggest that the death penalty saves lives by deterring criminals from committing more homicides. Perhaps the Supreme Court should review these cases while considering its de facto moratorium on executions, considering not only the state's role in punishing criminals but also its role in protecting innocents.

The studies, recently highlighted in national press reports, have sparked a renewed debate on the morality of capital punishment. Conducted by economists over the last decade, they conclude that one execution can save anywhere from three to 18 lives. The economists' data presents strong evidence that even would-be killers react to incentives to restrain themselves.


THIS PAST JUNE, Leftist Massachusetts released a murderer from prison who killed his mother 16 years ago. He moved to Washington State - and last weekend murdered a young couple who lived next door to him - a couple married for just a year. Their families are devastated and I'm sure that those who oppose the death penalty because it's cruel are getting ready to spring to this man's defense against his being executed. SHEEESH!

Posted by: obc | 2007-11-24 12:01:00 PM

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