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Monday, October 01, 2007
Remember what Winston Churchill said about abortion?
Nope, me either...
If Jesus were here today, walking with - just say for arguments sake - Rudy Giuliani, would you be among those asking him why he was eating with those sinners over there, those tax collectors and Galileans who were not perfect in faith and observance?
Jesus didn’t give the Keys to the Kingdom to a “suitable” candidate who had long-proved his religious bona fides. He gave them to a self-admitted “sinful man,” an impetuous man with a temper and a touch of cowardice - no one’s “ideal” of a leader - who was also a rock.
We have already seen - twice, now - that a pro-life Christian president does not translate into pro-life policies. Even when the Congress managed to pass a ban on partial birth abortions that law was stayed within hours by the courts.
The courts are where Christians need to keep their focus. And even a “sinful man,” can serve the cause for life, in the courts, if he is the sort of man who has displayed in his career, a respect for the constitution and the rule of law.
Sometimes I get the feeling that Christians forget that God can do anything.''
Posted by Kathy Shaidle on October 1, 2007 in Religion | Permalink
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Comments
Not buying this. Separation of Church and State is paramount.
Epsi
Posted by: Epsilon | 2007-10-01 3:14:46 PM
Then why aren't the words "separation of Church and State" anywhere to be found in the US Constitution?
Posted by: Kathy Shaidle | 2007-10-01 3:21:11 PM
However, the "right to life" _is_ enshrined in the Declaration of Independence...
Posted by: Kathy Shaidle | 2007-10-01 3:24:37 PM
I am not talking about the US Constitution but rather the founding principles of western democracy which arguably is broader in concept.
Epsi
Posted by: Epsilon | 2007-10-01 3:32:53 PM
I also believe it is unfair to drive a wedge between an opinion on abortion and a founding principle of democracy. One can be for or against abortion but unmoving in terms of the separation of church and state.
Epsi
Posted by: Epsilon | 2007-10-01 3:34:18 PM
"Separation of Church and State is paramount."
In a recent column, TED BYFIELD wrote:
I said in a column I write for an American web daily last week that, unlike Canada, the separation of church and state is "embedded" in the U.S. Constitution.
I was properly rapped by at least a dozen readers for perpetuating a lie.
I now discover it was "read into" the Constitution by their Supreme Court in 1947, creating the mythology that the constitution's original framers put it there.
Well, they didn't, and I am therefore guilty as charged.
But where, I wondered, did I get the idea.
I'm ashamed to admit that I picked it up from the Canadian news media.
Why I should have so gullibly believed their version of the American political scene, when I so readily doubt their version of the Canadian one, I cannot explain or defend.
Posted by: obc | 2007-10-01 3:48:50 PM
Canadian News Media, eh? Enough said!
Posted by: atric | 2007-10-01 4:01:27 PM
Canadian news media, liars like the politics they support.
Posted by: Liz J | 2007-10-01 4:45:31 PM
Redefine 'church' as 'belief' and it becomes all inclusive regardless of the motives which guides one toward any system of belief. Every human being believes in something even if it amounts to nothing !!
Posted by: Frico | 2007-10-01 5:18:50 PM
...we have to have a clear definition of the term "separation".
Does this mean any laws made for the land have no Christian/church reference or foundation?
Does this mean any so called 'moral laws' be marked void because umm, where does moral get preached these days?
Does this mean State is equal or greater than "Church".
Finally, what/who/where is meant by "Church"?
And please, don't swamp post with "there is only one true church" as in a particular man-made religion basing itself on female heretical ecumnism.
Posted by: tomax7 | 2007-10-01 5:44:16 PM
Correct me but... Canada's initial players did have the expressed intention to be secular, because of fear of the 'roman' french. Yes?
This doesn't have anything to do with , as stated above, beliefs. The country cannot desire freedom for its people, yet admonish them not to live by their beliefs, or to even have anybeliefs. Its untenable. Canada is trying it out (so it seems) but there is a back-lash of fiercely independant people resolved to practice their beliefs and protecting themselves from gov't indoctrination of their children (which they have in abundance.)
Who's gonna win this one? (I know who I'm betting on!)
Posted by: lwestin | 2007-10-01 7:21:49 PM
Who is going to win? Home schoolers and their children, that's who! And the wealthy who can afford to send their kids to private schools.
That leaves all the other children as the losers - which is exactly what Leftoids want - their future electorate.
Posted by: obc | 2007-10-01 7:26:55 PM
And speaking of the upcoming Columbus Day in the US, many Indians want this National holiday abolished because Columbus destroyed their civilization. Well, here's an example of what the Europeans destroyed - very late-term abortions:
"Inca sacrifices were 'fattened up' first"
WASHINGTON -- Children sacrificed by the Inca appear to have been "fattened up" in a yearlong ritual, new research suggests.
Researchers studied hair from the heads and in small bags accompanying four mummies of children sacrificed in Inca rituals. Their findings are reported in Tuesday's issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
The children's hair had been cut first a year and then six months before they were killed. By studying the chemicals preserved in the hair researchers can calculate the diet of the children.
The Inca lived in the area that is now Peru and were conquered by the invading Spanish in the early 1500s.
YEAH - those evil Europeans put an end to child sacrifice - HOW DARE THEY? Diversity - and all that crapola - All cultures are equal, etc.
Posted by: obc | 2007-10-01 7:49:41 PM
The Greeks founded democracy. There was no Christian Church back then, that would have to wait another 800 years.
Epsi
Posted by: epsilon | 2007-10-01 7:52:44 PM
"The Greeks founded democracy. There was no Christian Church back then, that would have to wait another 800 years."
. . . and it was almost wiped out in its infancy by Persian invaders that attempted to conquer Athens. History is repeating itself!
Posted by: obc | 2007-10-01 7:56:03 PM
And then again by the Turks with the fall of Constantinople in 1453. Thank God, a few Byzantines escaped to Italy and founded the Renaissance prior to this bearing precious ancient Greek manuscripts.
but in between, we still had Alexander. God Bless 'im!
Epsi
Posted by: epsilon | 2007-10-01 8:05:43 PM
El Cid, Charles Martel - who will save us this time?
George W. Bush? Or will we have to await Rudy G.'s presidency?
Heck - Shrillery ain't gonna be the one, that's for sure!
Posted by: obc | 2007-10-01 8:15:02 PM
...pssst - the the Christian church was around long before the Greeks.
Posted by: tomax7 | 2007-10-01 8:24:36 PM
"Correct me but... Canada's initial players did have the expressed intention to be secular, because of fear of the 'roman' french. Yes?"
I doubt if the the word "secular" was even part of their vocabulary. Parliament began until very recently with prayer in Jesus' name. The Parliament Buildings have Bible verses carved in stone, where its difficult for secularists to get their hands on them, testifying to the reign of the Messiah. Canada's motto "from sea to sea" is an allusion to the coming Messiah's reign. Marriage, in keeping with judeo-christian beliefs, was rooted in human biology and the presumptive rights of children, to be born, and raised in a two-parent family consisting of one mother and one father. Supreme Court judges to this day invoke God's aid in fulfilling their mandate.
The doctrine of separation of church and state simply means that the Church, as an organization, should not run the state, and, importantly, vica-versa. It does not mean that a state cannot be suffused with values that derive from the religious values and beliefs of its citizens.
If, however, Canada wants to have strict separation of Church and state, then for starters we can
-- abolish all laws against stealing
-- abolish all laws that require persons to make truthful statements (such as tax forms)
-- abolish all laws against murder
-- abolish all laws that contribute to the idea that we are our "brother's keeper" and that we ought to take care of one another
-- abolish all notions that humans have intrinsic worth and dignity -- a particular contribution of judeo-christian thought based on being created in the image of God.
Posted by: Richard Ball | 2007-10-01 8:59:48 PM
Richard I believe you have described western civlization to a 'Tee'. The injustice system has done its work thoroughly.
Posted by: Frico | 2007-10-01 9:14:41 PM
Hi Tomax,
I am speaking of Classical Greek which predated Christianity but which did spawn platonism.
It was Thomas Aquinas that reconciled platonism with Christian thought and it was this fusing of philosphies that led to the great strides in science, governance and commercial power.
Epsi
Posted by: epsilon | 2007-10-01 10:44:10 PM
“When the Catholic hierarchy took Thomistic theology as its own, they shut off access to God. He could not be known intuitively, intimately, as the Divine Savior; He could only be reached through abstracted reason’s contemplation of the material world. While first, second, third, and umpteen generations of Catholic clergy were still tacking God on to the end of their contemplations of the material world, there were other men, ‘enlightened’ men, who were taking Aquinas’s schema to its logical conclusion. In the Catholic Church, the logical conclusion was Vatican II. Thomists claim that the disaster called Vatican II occurred because Thomistic theology was abandoned, when in reality the Vatican Twoers were just bringing Thomism to fruition. The natural Christ, the harvest God, who stands on an equal level with Buddha (Mohammed) and the idols of the Animists, was officially crowned at Vatican II, but his enthronement was made possible by the medieval scholastics."
Who opened the gates to the Islamists in Europe? The VIIers. And who laid the foundation for VII? Thomas Aquinas.
What is the Greek heresy?
“It is not intrinsically evil to study the Greek and Latin languages. Nor is it evil to study classical cultures. In fact, both intellectual pursuits can be a great good. The danger lies in the adaptation of the Greek mindset…. when faith becomes philosophy or pure mind, the heart and soul of that faith is eliminated. The Faith becomes a myth, which can be studied and examined and found to be necessary for the psychic health (Jung, Campbell) of the individual, but it cannot be acted upon as if it were literally true. What the Greeks and their Catholic followers fail to grasp is that pure mind will always fail to find God because God can only be found through the fairy tale mode—the Christianized version of the myth—of apprehension.”
Did St. Thomas Aquinas prove the existence of God?
“Thomas Aquinas’s infamous five proofs for the existence of God …never convinced anyone of God’s existence but did in fact make millions of potential believers believe that there was no God.”
Posted by: DJ | 2007-10-02 12:19:54 AM
Epsi - and the greatest Greek leader of all - Pericles - worshiped the "unknown God". Learn your Classics before you 'educate' others!
Posted by: jema54j | 2007-10-02 1:07:39 AM
Now, now Jema don't get all huffy now!
I said nothing of the sort. I SAID THE GREEKS FOUNDED DEMOCRACY 800 YEARS BEFORE THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH!
CHURCH NOT GOD!
Perhaps you should read my posts before you speak.
Take care,
Epsi
Posted by: Epsilon | 2007-10-02 8:22:13 AM
Epsi..."The Greeks founded democracy. There was no Christian Church back then, that would have to wait another 800 years."
If you are going to quote yourself, maybe, umm, quote yourself?
Word to the wise: switching words around and deleting original punctuality (the period) is not quoting yourself but erroneously manipulating a meaning (I know this wasn't on purpose).
I think you are trying to say the Greeks founded democracy 800 years before the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic Church came into existence.
What I was correcting is there is a difference between the "Christian Church" and the "Greek/Roman Church" which your refer to.
But that's another blogstream.
Posted by: tomax7 | 2007-10-02 11:21:02 AM
By the "Greek/Roman Church" I mean the two Christian churches that existed after the Great Schism. Together, these two churches, along with some smaller heretical arianist churches like the Nestorians constituted all of Christianity. Remember the Greek Orthodox got into a big row with Rome saying that they did not buy into the trinity. Rome did not declare them to be heretical as would normally be the case at that time.
This has nothing to do with the Greeks of Plato and Pericles who founded democracy.
Epsi
Posted by: Epsilon | 2007-10-02 11:29:35 AM
Epsi; You did not elaborate on the 'connection' that the schism had to the governance of the world.
The kings of the time, ruled by "Divine Right", meaning God Given -(sort of an 'original Liberano idea without the 'Divine'), without the blessing of the Pope and the latter's perceived funnel to God; the King lost his Divine Right to Rule. When three Popes popped out of the woodwork the Divine Right Kings found themselves in a political dilemma - what Pope would be the most expedient to 'bye off'?
Interesting to consider in the juxtaposition and consequent state of unravel that the "Entitled" Liberano brand find themselves embroiled.
Just blame Prime Minister Stephen Harper - he snatched their perceived 'right to rule' right from under their greasy noses. Without firing a shot!
Back to the Greeks - Democracy changes the rules - Christianity is not the Kingdom of a Pope; Christianity is of the Kingdom of God. God is Just. Democracy and God are immortal allies. Corruption/Dictatorship - Commi, Fascist. Military or Royal - is the Fools Game of the other 'lesser' guy; the one who lives in a controlled hothouse - We should Thank God and our God faring ancestors that we live in a Democracy.
Posted by: jema54j | 2007-10-02 4:44:41 PM
Hi Jema!
It is nice to meet another history buff!
The Schism has little to do with this particular argument as I was trying to differentiate the Greeks who founded democracy in 400 - 500 BC (give or take) from the Greek Orthodox Church that seemed to be confusing Tomax.
Back to the beginning, I was stating that Church and State need to be separated and the fact that the Church did not exist in Greek times though there was a very strong mythology and astrology based religion, Oracle of Delphi etc but that none of this, even Plato's monotheistic musings ever entered into their democratic institutions in a serious way.
So I do not buy any linkages between government and God. May I present to you the Islamist theocracies that state the exact contrary position regarding democracy, a position that perhaps echoes back more to the Medieval "Divine Right of Kings" as exercised by the despots of old.
Mind you, neither God nor the Pope ever got in the way of kingly objectives be it the chromosomal conundrums of Henry the VIII, the bedside conversions of Constantine, brutal Papal Inquisitions, the savage sacking of Christian Constantinople by Pope Innocent III under the guise of a crusade as retribution for an equal savage sacking by the equally "Divine" Justinian of Constantinople!
LoL! History! Gotta love it!
Epsi
Posted by: Epsilon | 2007-10-02 5:05:46 PM
Well, Epsilon, if you think that religion and politics were not connected in Ancient Greece you do need to do a little more reading. Plato was a Philosopher, not a politician. Pericles was the Head of the Athenian State during the Golden Age. Pericles worshiped at the altar of the 'Unknown God'.
The Greeks used mythical gods to explain abstract nouns; innovative and effective for psychological problems that plague all people. The Greeks of Athens attended to their spiritual health by appealing to the Unknown God; God was known about...Jesus came to our world to make God the only God. God is well known now; He is the embodiment of all honorable abstract nouns. God is within all people - He is Courage, Faith, Love, Compassion, Kindness, Justice, Freedom. The evil fellow has claim to the negative Abstract nouns like Envy, Greed, Nepotism, Selfishness, Cruelty.
I do not think that Islam has any place in a discussion about Christianity and the state, I worship God and I vote for politicians who worship God. I do not trust anyone who does not worship God.
Posted by: jema54j | 2007-10-03 1:32:40 AM
Well, Epsilon, if you think that religion and politics were not connected in Ancient Greece you do need to do a little more reading. Plato was a Philosopher, not a politician. Pericles was the Head of the Athenian State during the Golden Age. Pericles worshiped at the altar of the 'Unknown God'.
The Greeks used mythical gods to explain abstract nouns; innovative and effective for psychological problems that plague all people. The Greeks of Athens attended to their spiritual health by appealing to the Unknown God; God was known about...Jesus came to our world to make God the only God. God is well known now; He is the embodiment of all honorable abstract nouns. God is within all people - He is Courage, Faith, Love, Compassion, Kindness, Justice, Freedom. The evil fellow has claim to the negative Abstract nouns like Envy, Greed, Nepotism, Selfishness, Cruelty.
I do not think that Islam has any place in a discussion about Christianity and the state, I worship God and I vote for politicians who worship God. I do not trust anyone who does not worship God.
Posted by: jema54j | 2007-10-03 1:33:19 AM
>Interesting to consider in the juxtaposition and consequent state of unravel that the "Entitled" Liberano brand find themselves embroiled.
Just blame Prime Minister Stephen Harper - he snatched their perceived 'right to rule' right from under their greasy noses. Without firing a shot!<
I like that last paragraph, jema. Reminds me of something Margaret Thatcher said after the fall of communism, regarding Pope John Paul and Ronald Reagan---how they had won the cold war without firing a single shot. I'm sure that was the reference you had in mind.
But I had another thought about the modern world (my knowledge of history is insufficient to write of Ancient Greece or Rome). Take the issue of capital punishment. Some are for it and they take a lot of heat from the left for it. They've been called barbarians and red-necks and Christian Fundamentalists. Derogatory labels when delivered by the left of the political spectrum.
Of those who oppose capital punishment, some do so on the basis that an innocent person may be wrongly convicted and put to death---not very likely with DNA evidence, but still an argument. Others believe no convicted killer is beyond re-habilitation. Still others say, lock 'em up and throw away the key (sort of the same as saying, it's not the state's job to kill people). But there is another group opposing capital punishment, people with faith in God. I don't know how many are fundamentalists, but I imagine there are some. This group believes: "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord".
My point is simply to re-inforce by example that there are ways our Judeo-Christian heritage influence our modern lives, even if the left would prefer to believe otherwise.
Posted by: kennedy | 2007-10-03 4:56:35 AM
Separation of church and state is the mantra of the Left which they interpret and apply according to their whims. What we overlook at our peril is that at present we have state imposed leftist religion in our courts, schools and the public square. This is exactly what the American Constitution sought to avoid.
It is imperative for judge to cease their judicial activism through re-writing the Charter or the American Constitution and legislating from the bench. It is imperative to return schools/universities to the roll of education as opposed to indoctrinating.
This concerns, or should, all of us and is not limited to Christians.
Posted by: Alain | 2007-10-03 11:50:00 AM
Kennedy - I agree with you that the fanatical, radical controlling, type believer is just as ridiculous and as dangerous as the left wing wackos. Christianity is not fanatical, it is practical.
The Lord God says 'Know thyself', we are all faced with two forces: Good and Evil and we are destined to fight these forces; within and in others, for our entire life. People who appeal to God to help them out know themselves and they know God. People who appeal to the good in all people do not quail at tarring and feathering the bad in themselves or in others. If a soul has gone totally to the evil end and murdered, butchered or traitorized innocent people, unjustly, then they must be punished. Killing someone else is justified in Christian practical belief if it is done in self defense, in the defense of innocents or in defense of one's people (as soldiers in a war).
The ongoing war (good vs evil) is individual and collective - we must be always on the lookout for those who would use Christianity to fuel evil ambitions.
Posted by: jema54j | 2007-10-03 3:03:06 PM
>" Reminds me of something Margaret Thatcher said after the fall of communism, regarding Pope John Paul and Ronald Reagan---how they had won the cold war without firing a single shot."
Posted by: kennedy | 3-Oct-07 4:56:35 AM
Communism didn't 'fall', it is still with us today.
(China, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Russia, and the 5th column in our bosom))
JP2 and Ronald Reagan didn't win the Cold War, it still goes on.
What happened was the West prematurely declared themselves victorious and unilaterally stopped fighting their side of the Cold War.
We'll see who wins yet.
Posted by: Speller | 2007-10-03 3:35:37 PM
"and the 5th column in our bosom"
Come on, Speller. Don't be afraid to name names:
The NDP & the Greens!
The Lieberals are communist lite.
Posted by: obc | 2007-10-03 3:38:53 PM
Hi Jema,
I truly appreciate that you have flavoured your opinion with elements of history, especially western history, something that is sorely lacking in schools as the founding principles of democracy, reason and yes , religion are the reason why we are here today. A failure to appreciate this legacy and treasure it by my generation is the reason that we are losing it. I feel that young people are missing out on having a greater appreciation for the things they have and the need to fight to keep it and grow it.
But we all have different opinions and our beliefs colour our opinions as well to various degrees.
Perhaps I will leave it at that and look forward to future stimulating discussion with you!
My best,
Epsi
PS: I still say you are overestimating the impact of ancient Greek religion on democracy. Have you visited or studied in Athens at all? Just curious.
Posted by: Epsilon | 2007-10-03 3:43:22 PM
Athens, Georgia has some decent schools - and football teams too. :)
Posted by: obc | 2007-10-03 3:49:23 PM
Epsi - The answer to both of your questions is yes. I have read the plays (Sophicles, Eripides etc.), the philosophy (Socrates, Plato, Hericlitus, Aristotal etc.) and primary and secondary scources of history. I visited Greece back in the 1970's.
Are you a student of Classical Studies?
Posted by: jema54j | 2007-10-04 10:39:00 AM
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