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Thursday, September 27, 2007
Penny wise and pound foolish
I'm certainly all for more spending on the military. But one of the biggest expenditures made by the previous Liberal government, the purchase of used British submarines, is looking more and more foolish all the time. Or, more appropriately, penny wise and pound foolish.
As Paul Willcocks reports in today's Victoria Times Colonist: "... since Canada took possession in October 2000, the HMCS Victoria has actually been in service for 115 days -- about four months out of seven years. For every day of use, there have been three weeks of repairs and refitting."
Read Willcocks' entire piece here.
Posted by Terry O'Neill on September 27, 2007 in Current Affairs | Permalink
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Comments
Typical Fibrils...who care about the safety of Canadian soldiers as long as they can find another 3 million to give their crook buddies in Quebec.
Posted by: Sean Whelan | 2007-09-27 12:50:07 PM
In the 'spring of 2007, DND and DREA contracted an
aeronautical engineer with much experience in the use of steel with low pressured cured Composites to evaluate the hull and composite tile cover on one boat. In typical Lester Pearson Navy style, the Report was "Classified as Secret" and is not available for public inspection. The Mulroney government opted for Nuclear SSN boats but backed away from the estimated costs -typical Mulroney style, when in doubt run like hell. Buying these surplus vessels from the RN was unquestionably
badly thought out, but at least most are servicable and at sea. Which is what they were obtained for when one thinks about it.Macleod
not surprised in Monckton NB
Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-09-27 12:58:16 PM
...is it heresay or can these subs NOT go under the Artic ice?
Posted by: tomax7 | 2007-09-27 2:50:41 PM
Any submarine is capable of operating under Arctic Ice if considered seaworthy -but these boats have had years of continuing problems, for one thing they
represent 1950's technology. The composite tiles which cover their steel hulls are acoustic tile which
became redundant during the middle years of the cold
war, and were World War Two technology to begin with
-US,UK,French,Russian and Israeli SSN (Sub surface Nuclear) Boats proceed under Arctic Ice on a regular basis. Minister O'Connor as MND got flawed advice from a couple of his Ontario based political flunkies when a well known USNavy SSN proceeded under Arctic Ice and Canadian Media went ballistic -but the SSN was well known to the Canadian Navy having been involved in many North Atlantic and Pacific Ocean exercises and a regular visitor to CFB Jetty Shearwater NS for regular periods of Shore Leave known in the Navy as RR, which NATO subs have been doing for many decades
One often sees NATO SSN's in historic Halifax Harbour NS -NATO Fleet visits bring more visitors than Tourism promotions, great for the Halifax economy, it has been ever thus -readers should have seen the Harbour say, in 1944 or 1945, particularly when the "Grey Ladies", RMS, Queen Mary and RMS Queen Elizabeth were tied up at Pier 21. Longshoreman called them "The Grey Ladies" huge luxury liners capable of transporting 8,000
soldiers each. They were so fast German U Boats could'nt catch them. Macleod
Posted by: Jack MacLeod | 2007-09-27 4:49:47 PM
Any submarine is capable of operating under Arctic Ice if considered seaworthy -but these boats have had years of continuing problems, for one thing they
represent 1950's technology. The composite tiles which cover their steel hulls are acoustic tile which
became redundant during the middle years of the cold
war, and were World War Two technology to begin with
-US,UK,French,Russian and Israeli SSN (Sub surface Nuclear) Boats proceed under Arctic Ice on a regular basis. Minister O'Connor as MND got flawed advice from a couple of his Ontario based political flunkies when a well known USNavy SSN proceeded under Arctic Ice and Canadian Media went ballistic -but the SSN was well known to the Canadian Navy having been involved in many North Atlantic and Pacific Ocean exercises and a regular visitor to CFB Jetty Shearwater NS for regular periods of Shore Leave known in the Navy as RR, which NATO subs have been doing for many decades
One often sees NATO SSN's in historic Halifax Harbour NS -NATO Fleet visits bring more visitors than Tourism promotions, great for the Halifax economy, it has been ever thus -readers should have seen the Harbour say, in 1944 or 1945, particularly when the "Grey Ladies", RMS, Queen Mary and RMS Queen Elizabeth were tied up at Pier 21. Longshoreman called them "The Grey Ladies" huge luxury liners capable of transporting 8,000
soldiers each. They were so fast German U Boats could'nt catch them. Macleod
Posted by: Jack MacLeod | 2007-09-27 4:53:15 PM
Maybe it's time to get out of the submarine business. Concentrate resources on amphibious ships and operations. Buy something like the ships Spain and Australia are acquiring - combining an amphibious ship with an aircraft carrier.
Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2007-09-27 5:11:11 PM
Speaking of water related matters, China is getting into deep doo-doo with regards to their water supply, either by running out of it or polluting what remains of it:
"Though water is drying up, a Chinese metropolis booms"
SHIJIAZHUANG, China: Hundreds of feet below ground, this provincial capital of more than two million people is steadily running out of water. The water table is sinking fast. Municipal wells have already drained two-thirds of the local groundwater.
Above ground, this city in the North China Plain is having a party. Economic growth topped 11 percent last year. Population is rising. One new upscale housing development is advertising waterfront property on lakes filled with pumped groundwater. Another half-built complex, the Arc de Royal, is rising above one of the lowest points in the city's water table.
"People who are buying apartments aren't thinking about whether there will be water in the future," said Zhang Zhongmin, who has tried for the past 20 years to raise public awareness about the city's dire water situation.
For three decades, water has been indispensable in sustaining the rollicking economic expansion that has made China a world power. Now, China's galloping, often wasteful style of economic growth is pushing the country toward a water crisis. Water pollution is rampant nationwide, while water scarcity has worsened severely in north China - even as demand keeps rising everywhere.
China is scouring the world for oil, natural gas and minerals to keep its economic machine humming. But trade deals cannot solve water problems. Water usage in China has quintupled since 1949, and leaders will increasingly face tough political choices as cities, industry and farming compete for a finite and unbalanced water supply.
One example is grain. The Communist Party, leery of depending on imports to feed the country, has long insisted on grain self-sufficiency. But growing so much grain consumes huge amounts of underground water in the North China Plain, which produces half the country's wheat. Some scientists say farming in the rapidly urbanizing region should be restricted to protect endangered aquifers. Yet doing so could threaten the livelihoods of millions of farmers and cause a spike in international grain prices.
For the Communist Party, the immediate challenge is the prosaic task of forcing the world's most dynamic economy to conserve and protect clean water. Water pollution is so widespread that regulators say a major incident occurs every other day. Municipal and industrial dumping has left broad sections of many rivers "unfit for human contact."
Posted by: obc | 2007-09-27 7:44:07 PM
They were so fast German U Boats could'nt catch them.
As the fastest U-boat could do about 18.5 knots it would have a problem keeping up with an experienced windsurfer.
The USN has a facility in San Diego called the Arctic Submarine Laboratory which does research and develops technology for Arctic operations of submarines. www.csp.navy.mil/asl
Posted by: lotus 25 | 2007-09-27 8:48:06 PM
...obc, China is in dire straights. But worse yet, we are buying crops grown in polluted water - take garlic for instance. Never seen such white looking garlic in my life. Must bleach them?
Water, the next war. Canada is in China's sights.
Posted by: tomax7 | 2007-09-27 9:56:54 PM
...while the German U-boats weren't fast, I wouldn't write them off seeing they sunk nearly 10,000 ships.
At the peak of hostilities, between late 1942 and early 1943, U-boats sank on average 33 Allied merchant ships each week. Most losses occurred in the North Atlantic, but Axis forces sunk many merchant ships off the coasts of South America and Africa.
No small feat for a slow 'boat'.
Posted by: tomax7 | 2007-09-27 9:59:15 PM
...the Allies lost some 5,150 merchant ships during the war, this isn't including military ships mind you.
http://www.heritage.nf.ca/law/merchant_marines.html
Posted by: tomax7 | 2007-09-27 10:00:19 PM
Your right, those "slow" boats nearly brought Great Brittan, hence the allies to their knee's.
Only through the combined efforts of the Canadian, British, and American Navy's, aided of course by the advent of sonar, was the U-boat threat brought under control.
Of course that was when allies actually meant you were allies and banded together to confront evil.
A far cry from the pathetic state of affairs today.
Posted by: deepblue | 2007-09-27 10:16:40 PM
Three members of my family were decorated RCNVR Captains of minesweepers,a Corvette and Frigate,
-airpower in fact won the Battle of the Atlantic
once the submarines were spotted escorts equipped with ASDIC and SONAR caught and killed them. Halifax NS in World War Two was on the front line of the Battle of The Atlantic, I don't need to go to Google for facts and figures -I remember the big convoys and the escort ships, saw and heard them every morning in 1943,44,45.I was referring to the Grey Ladies -well known fact that the German submarines could not catch them nor could convoys keep up with them. The "Term U-Boat" was never heard during the War -became popular long
after VJ day - (the end of World War Two)Pearson's Navy does not need Submarines in any event, nor Amphibious Support Ships which became an icon more or less for "Peacekeeping Operations" which the CF have opted out of hopefully forever. In our house the Canadian Navy remains the Royal Canadian Navy
-my late father who spent his life at sea and friends never forgave Pearson and that fool Hellyer for destroying the RCN and RCNVR. Macleod
Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-09-28 6:55:19 AM
Agree on all points JM.
Posted by: deepblue | 2007-09-28 7:17:57 AM
The "Term U-Boat" was never heard during the War
The term U-Boat was used as early as the 1st World War to describe both German and Austrian submarines, and was commonly used in WW2.
Nevertheless, the USN has been testing for the last 5 or 6 years several new types of sonar and communications equipment specifically designed for Arctic use, so they view the area as a very important component of their overall operations.
Posted by: lotus 25 | 2007-09-28 9:00:47 AM
JACK - From your neck of the woods:
"N.B. group behind anti-yellow ribbon campaign"
Fredericton's mayor is calling a peace coalition misguided as the group pressures local businesses to stop displaying yellow decals calling for support of Canadian troops in Afghanistan.
Mayor Brad Woodside says the group is focusing its criticism on local proprietors when it should be lobbying the government.
"When you ask people to take down the yellow ribbon that says support our troops, I think we're really going after the wrong people," Woodside told CTV Atlantic.
"If you have a problem with what the military is doing, then go after the politicians."
Tracey Glynn is a member of the Fredericton Peace Coalition and says that wearing a "Support Our Troops" yellow ribbon trumpets positive support for the war.
"I think by putting the yellow ribbon on or wearing the red shirt, you're being a cheerleader for the war," Glynn said.
DISGUSTING PARASITES! Why don't they use their time and visit the sick in hospitals or deliver food to the house-bound aged if they are such do-gooders????
Posted by: obc | 2007-09-28 9:12:42 AM
Fredericton is the left wing capital of New Brunswick. Mayor Brad Woodside is the popular Conservative Mayor of the old Loyalist City -
our partners and associates are weary of left wing Academics -who overlook the fact that the largest Military Training resource in the Commonwealth is CFB Gagetown NB created by PM John Diefenbaker
home to the Royal Canadian Regiment RCR which has lost many brave soldiers in Afghanistan. The left wing in Canada is out of touch with reality. Macleod
Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-09-28 9:43:03 AM
Leftoids - I have conclude - are mostly emotionally damaged human beings. Most psychologists & psychiatrists do not have the skills needed to be of help to them.
Posted by: obc | 2007-09-28 9:45:32 AM
Several of our original partners and two present partners are Tenured Professors -ne in Dalhousie U the other completing a sabbatical at Princeton -both
Conservatives -both educated in Nova Scotia and the UK -smart guys, appalled at most Canadian Universities now dominated by the Left, who have infiltrated Journalism Schools in particular which is one reason the MSM is so far to the left -particularly in Toronto and Ottawa. The quickly disintegrating Liberal Party of Canada is responsible for most of the rot in the system. Macleod
Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-09-28 10:18:11 AM
Kindness to the cruel is cruelty to the kind.
"Bali survivors blast Amnesty"
SURVIVORS of the Bali bombing have joined friends and relatives of victims in rejecting Amnesty International's call to spare the lives of three bombers. The human rights group has called on Australians to write to the Indonesian authorities in a bid to avert the execution of Imam Samudra, Ali Ghufron and Amrozi bin Nurhasyim. The three could soon face the firing squad after Indonesia's Supreme Court rejected their final appeals.
THESE so called human rights groups should be in Mayanmar to protest what is going on there if they want to help anyone.
Posted by: obc | 2007-09-28 11:25:56 AM
The quickly disintegrating Liberal Party of Canada is responsible for most of the rot in the system.
Having gotten both my BEng and MEng degrees outside of Canada I can't really comment on the quality of the Canadian universities, but isn't the university system under provincial control?
Posted by: lotus 25 | 2007-09-28 11:50:55 AM
There are no controls on Canadian Universities -There is no Provincial Jurisdiction related to any Atlantic Canada University that I am aware of. Link with the Feds and Provinces is through funding and administration of certain Scholarships. University
of Kings Collage Halifax NS was hi jacked by Socialist Horde and Liberal Tenured Professors -the
Board of Dalhousie U is frankly a Liberal Enclave
has been for many years. Decades ago the NS Liberal Party ensured control of Dalhousie, Saint FX, Saint Mary's U, Mount Saint Vincent (known as Mount Saint Virgins to my late Sister a grad) but
the Liberals of 70 plus years ago would not recognize the venerable Party as created by Chretien and Martin. Despite what MSM are writing, the once mighty Red Machine is in major decline,as
I noted before, they simply cannot raise money. Fed Liberals will not meet their Quebec payroll
today - (will that be cash or chargex?) Macleod
Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-09-28 12:43:18 PM
My understanding is that the used submarines were in excellent shape when they were offered but Ottawa kept postponing a decision. Now ask yourselves why Jean Chrétien would postpone approval of a bargain in the UK while he hoped to get Defence to agree to order expensive new ones from a Quebec shipyard.
Posted by: Lionel Albert | 2007-09-28 1:59:30 PM
obc: "THESE so called human rights groups should be in Mayanmar to protest what is going on there if they want to help anyone."
BINGO!
Posted by: tomax7 | 2007-09-28 2:02:44 PM
...Lionel, I don't know if the subs were in 'excellent' shape, as they were mothballed awhile back from being outdated.
Seawater/rust started corroding circuits and such and I read somewhere the RCN were already working on making them seaworthy again even before they left dock for Canada.
Posted by: tomax7 | 2007-09-28 2:05:34 PM
Much of the information about the Chretian Government's decision on the mothballed British (RN) submarines has been classified, no surprise to me.We look upon the acquisition as just another stupid political exercise which should not have happened
-Veterans of the real Navy would have rejected submarines for operational use by the Canadian Navy in any event, sincec they had very limited operational use and were to be committed to play war games with Navies who operate Nuclear boats (SSN's)
One raely herad the war at sea discussed in World War Two by the members of the RCN, RCNVR and RN who fought it. But recommended reading is "Sharks and Little Fish by Wolfgang Ott who served in the German undersea fleet. Much of the Book and Screenplay for "Das Boot" is based on Ott's excellent book. But I remember Commander James Fraser DSC who fought a German Submarine on the surface while commanding the Frigate HMCS Waskesieu that German vessels usually surfaced to attack a convoy because they needed the speed from their diesels rather than the subsurface electric
motors. Some German submarines surrendered in Halifax and off Shelburn NS in 1945 - Macleod
Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-09-28 3:27:52 PM
Some German submarines surrendered in Halifax and off Shelburn NS in 1945 - Macleod
You must remember the Battle of the St. Lawrence. What was the feeling in Halifax when the SS Caribou was sunk?
Posted by: lotus 25 | 2007-09-28 5:32:12 PM
The kinds of ships that you buy for our navy will depend on what you want to do with them. To operate for any time under the Arctic Ice you need an independent air supply. If your aim is to patrol an increasingly open NW passage you will probably need a well armed ice-breaking capable ship.
If your aim is to hunt submarines, you will need ultra quiet hunter-killer subs or dual helicopter capable frigates or destroyers. Good helicopters are essential to provide the speed necessary to hop ahead of the fast attack submarines you hope to kill. The frigate can't do that by itself.
Posted by: DML | 2007-09-28 7:54:17 PM
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