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Wednesday, August 22, 2007

A Sad Day

Unfortunately two other Van-Doos troopers have been killed by a roadside bomb in southern Afghanistan.

Our thoughts and prayers with the family and friends of these selfless individuals who sacrificed their lives to make our world a better one.

Posted by Winston on August 22, 2007 in Current Affairs, Military | Permalink

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Comments

It may well be down to whatever evolves,even to the worst case scenario which would be all out war with the ME. The world cannot sit by and watch and wait for them to disrupt our lives and terrorize people anywhere they please.

Posted by: LizJ | 23-Aug-07 3:34:10 PM

How many times do I have to post it, Liz? Military planner, stratiegists, and troops all say we need half a million troops to bring stability to the region. It is as simple as that. Currently, NATO has only provided fifty thousand.

Posted by: Edmontonian | 2007-08-23 3:38:40 PM


MacLeod and Pike.
First of all, thanks Pike for the acknowledgement.
MacLeod- I wasn't concerned with the reality of the situation, only the fact that this thread was being used to bring up a whole new topic, far removed from it's intent.I have a son-in-law who happens to be in Afstan at the moment and I am confident he would not like to have the mission compared to the problems in Toronto. It was out of respect that I chastised Pike and I don't apologize for it. There's all kinds of topics posted here that allow for the trashing (rightly) of Toronto's problems. I don't believe this is one of them.

Posted by: atric | 2007-08-23 3:39:37 PM


Speaking of hash oil.

Posted by: set you free | 2007-08-23 3:40:27 PM


LizJ, yes, for sure, and when the west essentially surrenders in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Taleban resurrect themselves, Iran controls Iraq, Syria, Hezbo, Hamas etc etc, Israel will have a nice new bunch of neighbors surrounding them, frothing at the mouth, crowding in to to do their evil and clearly pronounced duty.

Posted by: Sounder | 2007-08-23 3:41:30 PM


Tajikistan, Baluchistan, Afghanistan, and many other very unstable global locales are, according to geologists, loaded with oil.

The problem is that it is very unhealthy for western technicians to actually do exploration(drilling) let alone develop these resources in these dangerous and unstable places.(this is why the Paks, Iranians, and Chinese have been slaughtering the Balochs for 35 years in Baluchistan)

The oceans and arctic are safer.

Posted by: Speller | 2007-08-23 3:44:15 PM


"What business is it of Duceppe to sit in judgement of somebody who exercises their free choice to join the armed forces?"

Thats an easy one, it's just like all the pot smoking lefties who demand freedom max, over the top speech, free everything including importing terrorist supporting foreigners who don't even buy into their own level of freedom, anything goes EXCEPT 'free choice to join the military' cause they have bullets. It's a real joke.

Posted by: Sounder | 2007-08-23 3:47:49 PM


1. To join the armed forces ?
None.
To make sure every Quebecers are involved in causes that reach their beleifs... ?
That's his core business.

2. There's oil in Afghanistan ?
Gee, never knew.

Posted by: Marc | 2007-08-23 3:54:50 PM


Hey sounder,
Where, in Canada, do we have the most up-to-date analysis over immigration issues ?
(All principal provincial parties included)

Posted by: Marc | 2007-08-23 4:00:10 PM


The deaths, without reason and on a political mission, are without reason. These are Harper's deaths and he should pay.

Don't bother to complain I'm "politisizing". Harper has done that again, again and again.

Let's get the hell out, NOW.

Posted by: munroe | 2007-08-23 4:22:32 PM


What is "victory" in Afghanistan? When the Afghanis become democratized, westernized and civilized? When they renounce the Koran, the Hadith, the Prophet and the age-old philosophy of jihad? When they give up thousands of years of tribalistic xenophobia and welcome foreign troops into their country with open arms? When they settle down to a life of peace and goodwill, rather than the internecine warfare that has marked Afghanistan since time immemorial?

None of our soldiers there will have died in vain no matter what the eventual outcome of this war is. They are all heroes who join the pantheon of over 100,000 war dead who gave all for our country. May God bless all of them.

But trying to change a society like Afghanistan is like plowing the sea; it's pointless. NATO as a whole must come up with an exit strategy. A stable government friendly with Pakistan is possible, a pro-Western democracy is not. If terrorist elements regroup there sometime in the future, NATO has plenty in our arsenal to deal with them: Cruise missiles, J-DAMS and daisy cutters come to mind. Long-term occupation of Muslim countries is a fool's game. Better to keep Muslims from immigrating to the West and to bomb concentrations of terrorists and weapons, than ineffectually invading, occupying and trying to democratize Muslim nations.

Posted by: JP | 2007-08-23 4:41:10 PM


There's times in life where you need to pull the plogue. Continuing this nonsense without stopping and think is pure non-sense. Now, it's OUR turn: They want to kill us ? Let them come fighting on OUR GROUND !!!

Posted by: Marc | 2007-08-23 4:48:32 PM


Right, left and Marc - what is this, why are we putting people in the frame of someone elses's war?

No more deaths; support the troops - bring them home.

Posted by: munroe | 2007-08-23 5:06:54 PM


JP -

Don't you go out and interact with other people?

I'm just a real average guy, yet I have a person who I consider a friend, who is a lovely young lady who immigrated to America from Afghanistan.

I'll admit, she's real pretty (but I've been faithfully married longer than she has probably been alive), and that makes it easier for me to make friends. But I do business at the place she works (across the country from me) from time to time and I always depend upon her to help me get a necessary consideration or assistance when I'm travelling in that area.

I think of her as a friend.

Am I somehow mistaken? Is she actually an animal or a heathen?

She has her family back in Afghanistan. I ask about them when we (infrequently) speak to one another.

You must stop and think about what you are saying and suggesting; as though people from certain parts of the earth are not really human beings. Not worth helping.

It is just foolish and unworthy of a person who takes an interest in the world like yourself.

Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2007-08-23 5:21:04 PM


American help? I take it they have yet to be bombed.

Posted by: munroe | 2007-08-23 5:27:55 PM


Bombed by American air power. I forgat the neocans may need clarification.

Posted by: munroe | 2007-08-23 5:29:13 PM


More bowel-twisting and intellectually stunted commentary from crypto-commie and apparent Alzheimer patient, munroe.

The libs sent the troops there blunt-skull. If you want someone to take responsibility for this it should be the them.

For munroe reality is the path less walked.

Posted by: missing link | 2007-08-23 5:45:49 PM


What happens after Feb 09? A new mission begins in another part of AFG?

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2007-08-23 5:52:07 PM


ML, political responsibilty is not the issue. Liberals sent, Tories clambered on board.

End your "show" of dergatory language and take a stand. I say stop the foolishness and bring the Canadians home from Afghanistan. We can debate the right deployment later.

Can you be a bit clear?

Posted by: munroe | 2007-08-23 5:52:59 PM


conrad-USA.

It is not the individuals, but the culture that is the problem.

I agree that people on an individual basis can and usually are decent. Collectively they are a nightmare.

How do you separate the diamonds from the coal? You don't. You just squeeze until the only thing left are the diamonds.

Posted by: roger's gay lover | 2007-08-23 5:54:13 PM


ML, I sure would hate to see your bowel twisting or skull blunted. What happened, did you finally volunteer?

Posted by: munroe | 2007-08-23 5:55:35 PM


...and roger's friend and old ML are the only one's left. Now society is "mano a mano", (I suppose).

Posted by: munroe | 2007-08-23 5:57:34 PM



munroe

I should take a stand because you said so?

All hail the self-righteous munroe, purveyor of goodness and light.

You sir are a self-absorbed jackass with delusions of grandeur.

Posted by: missing link | 2007-08-23 5:59:13 PM


ML, at least I think about the world and form an opinion. I guess that's why the "missing link" died out.

Posted by: munroe | 2007-08-23 6:02:43 PM


Munroe, you are either thick or willfully ignoring the facts.
This mission was signed on to by JEAN CHRETIEN, Liberal Prime Minister, WITHOUT a vote in the HOC. It is a NATO mission. It was voted on in the HOC to stay the course until February, 2009. Harper will not extend it without a vote in the HOC.

To say it is Harper's war and he is responsible for the deaths is the most despicable, outlandish statement anyone make. You should be ashamed of yourself, totally and utterly.

With our Forces in the theater of war it's pretty disgusting to read posts by the likes of Marc, all stewed up all the time about his own little world of Quebec and his one trick pony, Duceppe.
Sorry, but you and your French Separatists are not an Island in the sea, you are part of Canada, like it or not. Our Canadian Forces fought in two world wars, they were our Ancestors and they were of British, French and European heritage who forged this country. Your Ancestral France was saved by those forces and our Allies in both wars.

It's difficult to figure why so many feel we should let terrorism have free reign to do evil and not fight it.

Posted by: LizJ | 2007-08-23 6:04:49 PM


Marc, what exactly are you looking for?

Posted by: Sounder | 2007-08-23 6:06:03 PM


Terrorism has nothing to do with the Occupation of Afghanistan. It is about bringing democracy to Afghanistan.

Posted by: Edmontonian | 2007-08-23 6:07:05 PM


Liz, you are avictim of the nonsense. Canadians, in the majority, say bring the troops home. Don't be a fool and a Fox/Bush shill. Think for yourself and lets not let one more kid die.

Posted by: munroe | 2007-08-23 6:09:02 PM


Conrad,
I actually know many Afghan people. During the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, my friend Reza was invaluable in keeping me informed of what his relatives and friends back home were saying about it. I remember him telling me that his relations were especially pissed because the Americans had bombed a horse farm near their town! And no, I don't think that they are animals or heathens.

But the numerous Afghans I know here in Toronto, or the one pretty Afghan girl you know in the States, certainly don't make either of us experts on Afghanistan. For that, one needs to read up on the history of the country, the region, and the religion of Islam to gain a fuller understanding.

I don't claim to be anything like an expert on the Middle East, but my general reading of the situation is that they are nowhere near ready for Western-style democracy. The all-encompassing anti-democratic nature of Islam and Sharia law combined with the region's ingrained tribalism fueled by cousin marriage are probably the two biggest impediments. Muslim societies have been historically, and are presently virtually all autocracies. To expect this to change because of Western-imposed "democratization" is hopelessly naive, in my opinion.

I don't believe it's our (the West's) responsibility to change the social and political system of Afghanistan or any other Muslim nation. And I can guarantee you that the Muslim world has absolutely no desire to be Westernized. Let them determine their own fate themselves. And as a corollary, let us in the West do the same. I'm opposed to Third World and particularly Muslim immigration beacause I want to preserve the Western, European and Judeo-Christian character of our civilization. You may disagree, but accusing me of seeing Muslims as animals is, frankly, way out of line.

Posted by: JP | 2007-08-23 6:29:31 PM


"Terrorism has nothing to do with the Occupation of Afghanistan. It is about bringing democracy to Afghanistan."
Posted by: Edmontonian | 23-Aug-07 6:07:05 PM

Afghanistan is under occupation because in it's thousands of years of history it has never had a stable government and the same type of terrorist camps that caused 9/11 would be re-erected as soon as the occupation ended. We can either bring a stable government to the place or go back multiple times and lay waste to it after they have attacked our civilization again.

Peace isn't the absence of war, peace is the absence of threat.

Posted by: Speller | 2007-08-23 6:34:53 PM


Spot on Speller.

Posted by: Alain | 2007-08-23 6:53:55 PM


JP -

Thanks for your response. I recognize in you a wealth of knowledge and experience, that is why it vexed me to read some of your comments.

On the one hand we criticize some foreign people as backward or ignorant then on the other we create massive structures of "bi-lingual" education to accomodate kids who have perhaps a 300 to 500 word vocabulary in their "native" language.

A lot of people, smart people, don't know diddly about their own nation's history or "culture".

We can set up roadblocks and impediments all over the place to PROVE this or that can't be done.

People are people.

I never asked that Afghan girl what religion if any she ascribed to. I never ask anybody about their religion, except that in discussions about the safety and security and protection of our nations and the changes (adverse changes) in our society or cultures, it seems that religious belief is hugely important, and it is most frequently a big help, a big plus if people haold to a religious Faith.

I too detect a lot of really terrible aspects of Islam. I think it is fatally (demonically) flawed as a guiding philosophy for nations. But it has produced a population of people who can discuss and argue issues and ideas (if you can ensure that they won't kill you or each other during the discussion).

We can work with this. We need to ensure that the secular minority rights are respected and protected and that government is transparent and fairly controlled by the population.

I'm an average man (with the good fortune of an education and lived long enough and done enough things to possess some knowledge), and yet I can fully understand what it takes to have a functioning society that doesn't systemically threaten its neighbors or its own citizens.

We are kidding ourselves, or being deliberately deceitful, to suggest throwing in the towel, or to ignore the obvious unending problem from the easily radicalized Islamic nations-populations.

This is sort of a part of being grown ups. I think we should step beyond the notion that we can just forget about it.

Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2007-08-23 7:00:33 PM


JP -

Thanks for your response. I recognize in you a wealth of knowledge and experience, that is why it vexed me to read some of your comments.

On the one hand we criticize some foreign people as backward or ignorant then on the other we create massive structures of "bi-lingual" education to accomodate kids who have perhaps a 300 to 500 word vocabulary in their "native" language.

A lot of people, smart people, don't know diddly about their own nation's history or "culture".

We can set up roadblocks and impediments all over the place to PROVE this or that can't be done.

People are people.

I never asked that Afghan girl what religion if any she ascribed to. I never ask anybody about their religion, except that in discussions about the safety and security and protection of our nations and the changes (adverse changes) in our society or cultures, it seems that religious belief is hugely important, and it is most frequently a big help, a big plus if people haold to a religious Faith.

I too detect a lot of really terrible aspects of Islam. I think it is fatally (demonically) flawed as a guiding philosophy for nations. But it has produced a population of people who can discuss and argue issues and ideas (if you can ensure that they won't kill you or each other during the discussion).

We can work with this. We need to ensure that the secular minority rights are respected and protected and that government is transparent and fairly controlled by the population.

I'm an average man (with the good fortune of an education and lived long enough and done enough things to possess some knowledge), and yet I can fully understand what it takes to have a functioning society that doesn't systemically threaten its neighbors or its own citizens.

We are kidding ourselves, or being deliberately deceitful, to suggest throwing in the towel, or to ignore the obvious unending problem from the easily radicalized Islamic nations-populations.

This is sort of a part of being grown ups. I think we should step beyond the notion that we can just forget about it.

Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2007-08-23 7:02:14 PM


We forget about it in Rhodesia, South Africa, in fact in most of Africa, Fiji, Guyana, Uzbekistan and on and on and on. What makes Afghanistan so special?

Posted by: DJ | 2007-08-23 7:11:34 PM


Speller, Afghans did not cause 9/11. The hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. You should also read what JP said above you, Speller.

Posted by: Edmontonian | 2007-08-23 7:13:29 PM


"We can either bring a stable government to the place or go back multiple times and lay waste to it after they have attacked our civilization again."

Or we can shut the door to all Islamic immigration, in fact all non-European white immigration. It'll save on jet fuel.

Sensible and enviromentally friendly!

Posted by: DJ | 2007-08-23 7:15:19 PM


Sounder,
I'm not sure.

*

My ancestors, LizJ, were Quebecers.
Je me souviens of any wars involving us.
Some against us, Some between us, some forced on us. No need for you to recall this on us.

Never, an old Dominion style English Canadian woman like you had any kind of pressure on your people AT HOME in Canada. You doesent have a clue about what la survivance means. Now that Islamists represent the only real threat you ever felt on your side here at home...you're in PANIC.
But not us, they didnt hit Canada as a specific target and we're not living in fear of being attacked. Still, Canada DO pressure on them so one day it will be our turn.

We can easely understand why some poor people are reaching Islam to fight back an outside force. We don't accept Islamists terorism in any ways...but we can understand some of their motive; especially those with no education at all.

Our Maitre chez nous attitude is the reflect of the society we've built by ourselves. If muslim coutries wish to be free one day, it would have to come from within - not imposed on them by countries who will always be seen as enemies for invading.

Most French quebecers are not or not very religious. Each life is important here. We refuse to die or let die for any religious wars since we don't beleive in the shit. If a group would enter Canada and attack let's say Manitoba, the Islands or any Canadian cities; you would see our Canadian fibre back on track in instant. But as long as our actions is about invading the poorer of the poorer...you wont have our full support.

We're dying inna country that never attacked us or anybody. same shit is happening in Irak. You beleive our lack of support for those false missions is outrageous ? Take a good look of what the rest of the world think of N-A...

Posted by: Marc | 2007-08-23 7:25:56 PM


"Or we can shut the door to all Islamic immigration, in fact all non-European white immigration. It'll save on jet fuel."

Even this would be a better solution than attacking randomly any counries where muslims are in supperior numbers.

Posted by: Marc | 2007-08-23 7:29:40 PM


No, we were not attacked by Afghans but that country harboured terrorists and gave them sanctuary and the training ground to hone their skills. We could say the same thing now about northern Pakistan but to pressure that country is beyond our means and I suspect the situation is too complex for the US to pursue as well. An earlier poster said he/she was not an expert on the situation. It doesn't sound like any of us are but if we discuss intelligently we might gain some knowledge.

Posted by: DML | 2007-08-23 10:53:10 PM


Yes they do and it is something they should be ashamed of and stop. Trying to control the world is counterproductive and ultimately an immoral stance which defeats what you are trying to do.

Posted by: DML | 2007-08-23 11:18:06 PM


Speller, Afghans did not cause 9/11. The hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. You should also read what JP said above you, Speller.

Posted by: Edmontonian | 23-Aug-07 7:13:29 PM

So, Ed, where have you been for the last 6 years? The Taliban gave Al Qaeda and Bin Laden safe haven to plan their attacks. That is why the Taliban rats have been knocked from power in Afghanistan. That wasn't too difficult, eh?

Posted by: MarkAlta | 2007-08-23 11:28:49 PM


There is still no proof that Bin Laden was involved on 9/11. He even denies involvement a few weeks after, when interviewed by a Pakistani Newspaper. Taliban are also stronger than ever in Afghanistan, right now. Get your facts straight MA before posting here, please.

Posted by: Edmontonian | 2007-08-23 11:34:24 PM


MA you should also read all posts in this thread (not just the ones that agree with your views). Roger already answered your question:

Afghanistan did not attack Canada or any NATO country. Not a single hijacker on 9/11 was an Afghan. So why is Canada fighting and killing civilians in Afghanistan? It is there homeland and they can choose to live however they want--it is none of our business.

Posada Carriles is a terrorist who has admitted to mass murder and he walks around free in America. The School of the Americas trained thousands of terrorists who then went to kill around the world.

Posted by: ROGER | 23-Aug-07 9:47:18 PM

Posted by: Edmontonian | 2007-08-23 11:37:37 PM


Two Canadian soldiers KIA while serving with NATO Forces in Afghanistan is another tragedy but loss of life is a fact in military operations regardless of
the circumstances -96 RCAF aircrews were killed in flying activities when Canada equipped it's operational RCAF Fighter Squadrons with the LM F-104 Starfighter -losses although tragic were accepted as part of the committment by serving Canadians to professional military aviation. The Afghan operations are not like any Canadian Forces have participated in during their entire history -the
fanatic Muslim enemy have no sense nor remorse for losses but Canadians value and protect life. Taliban fanatics will continue their threat until they consider the "war" won. None of the posters on this site can possibly know what the US reaction to continuation of the Afghan "war" will
be -but losses of more Canadian Soldiers is inevitable, Canada will support the war until an acceptable conclusion is reached -just like in Korea, Macleod

Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-08-24 6:21:02 AM


Two Canadian soldiers KIA while serving with NATO Forces in Afghanistan is another tragedy but loss of life is a fact in military operations regardless of
the circumstances -96 RCAF aircrews were killed in flying activities when Canada equipped it's operational RCAF Fighter Squadrons with the LM F-104 Starfighter -losses although tragic were accepted as part of the committment by serving Canadians to professional military aviation. The Afghan operations are not like any Canadian Forces have participated in during their entire history -the
fanatic Muslim enemy have no sense nor remorse for losses but Canadians value and protect life. Taliban fanatics will continue their threat until they consider the "war" won. None of the posters on this site can possibly know what the US reaction to continuation of the Afghan "war" will
be -but losses of more Canadian Soldiers is inevitable, Canada will support the war until an acceptable conclusion is reached -just like in Korea, Macleod

Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-08-24 6:21:19 AM


"Afghanistan did not attack Canada or any NATO country. Not a single hijacker on 9/11 was an Afghan. So why is Canada fighting and killing civilians in Afghanistan? It is there homeland and they can choose to live however they want--it is none of our business."

Is that the best you assholes can do?

Here's a little newsflash for you, Germany, Japan, Italy, North Vietnam, North Korea did not attack us either, and although I'm sure you morons would disagree Canada did the right thing then, armed herself and joined in the fight to stop the evil that was spreading across the world.

Although you self professed experts have forgotten, Canada has a long and rich history of taking up the fight against tyranny and of fighting for the freedom of others.

Tell you what, why don't you go down to the local legion and start screaming the same crap you spew here about killing "innocent" civilians and fighting a useless war. See how long your moronic vision of our military and its mission stands up to a good old face to face.

Posted by: deepblue | 2007-08-24 8:02:28 AM


Deepblue:
Great point! I would be happy to accompany munroe, ROGER, or any other trollish 'nad to a local legion for a face to face debate. I'm in central ontario, and am willing to drive a few hours or so.

Posted by: Hoser | 2007-08-24 9:08:47 AM


There is still no proof that Bin Laden was involved on 9/11. He even denies involvement a few weeks after, when interviewed by a Pakistani Newspaper. Taliban are also stronger than ever in Afghanistan, right now. Get your facts straight MA before posting here, please.

Posted by: Edmontonian | 23-Aug-07 11:34:24 PM

Ed: My post explaining why we are in Afghanistan is very clear. You would have to be brain dead not to understand...and touche. Bin Laden is on video claiming credit for 9/11, with some of his towel headed buddies.

The Taliban are not stronger than ever, because they are no longer ruling the country, and we are not killing civilians, we are killing Taliban. (big difference)

Posted by: Markalta | 2007-08-24 10:14:12 AM


Ed: I almost forgot...regarding your stating that I shopuld read all the posts, I'm sorry, but I do not read any posts by Ali, as he has done enough damage to this site, and I will no longer read his stupid and juvenile rants. LOL

Posted by: Markalta | 2007-08-24 10:16:44 AM


Bin Ladden is a fag and, he's not an Afghan.

Posted by: Marc | 2007-08-24 3:09:56 PM


How is it violence to offer a ride to a civilized discussion at a legion hall? C'mon ROGER, be a man, have the courage to stand up for what you believe in.

My local legion has, well, at least 4 recent vets from The Stan whom would be quite interested in meeting you.

Posted by: Hoser | 2007-08-24 8:53:21 PM



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