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Saturday, June 09, 2007

Decoding the Left: "Why We are Always Wrong"

Tim Denton delves into how the Left's notions of morality are in fact a "weird inversion of the Victorian scale of being" and a "secularized Ptolemaic universe":

The division between Left and Right frequently seems more about moral superiority than it does about economic interests. Those with no need to be morally superior can be conservatives or liberals or even self-identify with the "left" , but all these people are quite distinct from this species of human I am trying identify. I will acknowledge that the striving for moral superiority is a constant of human nature but I find it a particular feature of the leftism of our times.

One kind of positional good is moral superiority. Another, and more usual kind, is being cool.

The "positional goods" kind of leftism was brilliantly analyzed in Potter and Heath's The Rebel Sell (2004), which said that leftism had sold out to a certain kind of concern for being "cool". They write:

"The central idea of the Critique of Mass Society is quite simple. It's that the enormous wealth of our society is based upon the technology of mass production: you've got the factory, the assembly line, the hierarchically organized corporation, and the impersonal state bureaucracy. We accept all this because we appreciate the wealth the system produces, largely in the form of creature comforts and household consumer goods....

"According to the Counter-Cultural idea, what people need to be liberated from is not a specific class that oppresses them, or from a system of exploitation that imposes poverty on them. It's because people are trapped in a gilded cage and have come to love their own enslavement. Society controls them by limiting their imagination and suppressing their deepest needs. So what they need to escape from its own conformity, and to do, they must reject the culture in it's entirety. They must form a counter-culture. One based on freedom and individuality."

Heath and Potter offer a leftist critique of modern society, leftist because they think that an actual political leftism should be concerned about income inequality and measures to shift incomes among income quintiles, rather than, say, having cool studio apartments in formerly run-down neighbourhoods, wearing obscure types of retro sneakers and sporting counter-cultural emblems of supposed non-conformity.

Neither Heath and Potter's actual leftism, nor the positional goods leftism of the people they criticize, concern me. First because Potter and Heath's leftism is legitimate, and I am not prepared to say they are always wrong - and second because the positional goods leftism of being cool is just capitalist consumption around taste parameters I don't share or care about.Heath and Potter have written brilliantly about that sort of leftism and I recommend their book heartily.

The third kind of leftism is about positional goods of a completely immaterial kind: moral superiority. Some people have a deep-seated need to be morally superior, and in today's society they usually associate with the political left. Not enough attention has been paid to this feature of life.

My observations have led me to the following conclusion. One of the chief and most reliable indicators of left-wing thought is the notion that we are always wrong. Conversely, our enemies, whoever they might be at the moment, are essentially excused. There is always some reason based in how we treated them that causes them to aim nuclear missiles at us, blow us up, chop our heads, riot and burn down Korean groceries. The crimes of the "oppressed" are not crimes but legitimate expressions of their anger with us.

More here.

Posted by Paul Canniff on June 9, 2007 in Canadian Politics | Permalink

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Comments

I have no patience for the left.

I live in Calgary-Elbow, and we're having an election next week to replace Mr. Klein.

On Thursday, I found some Liberal pamphlets in my mailbox. I immediately tore them up and threw them in the garbage.

Today, an NDP canvasser came to my door. Once I saw the NDP logo, I closed the door in her face before she had a chance to say anything. Serves her right.

The left simply takes its orders from Ontario's privileged elite. What might work out there (and I doubt anything does) doesn't work out here. Albertans have seen what the left has to offer through the NEP and Kyoto. I don't know how an Albertan with a memory and a conscience can be a leftist. Oh well, it's a free country.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2007-06-09 7:37:01 PM


Something can be said about the left deceiving itself about moral superiority. However, I think something else better explains the way the left thinks.

The left can be described as "fearing being envied for being successful". I have thought long and hard about this little phrase since I first heard it and I believe it explains the left the best in the fewest words. It would have been nice to have been the one who first said these words...

Posted by: Brent Weston | 2007-06-09 7:50:07 PM


"It would have been nice to have been the one who first said these words..."

As long as you recognize the truth in this statement, it matters not who said it first - as I'm sure you know.

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-09 8:24:38 PM


In a recent debate face-to-face against an evironmental fanatic, all I had to do was utter five words.

“I'm not into collective guilt."

Collective guilt seems to be the disease of the left as articulated in the article.

Posted by: set you free | 2007-06-09 9:02:17 PM


I've had this discussion at work about a thousand times now. This is the fruit of the labours of decades of self loathing created by socialists.

This socialist ideal has been systematically brainwashing students for decades and is now so entrenched into our system so deep that I don't see a way out.

The link below is one that rings very true for this topic.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/05/harry_reid_the_end_of_liberal.html

Posted by: niv | 2007-06-09 9:27:46 PM


We are all in favour of liberating leftists, first ensure that our group of companies flatly refuse to hire them, and if by chance one or two appear in our employ remove post haste, like removing a wart from your index finger. The left in the Western World provide nothing whatever of substance, and are the whores of our society - one thing we learned in Castro's Cuba, the real leftists are promptly locked up -those guys one sees cleaning up the beaches and streets are the political left of Cuba, friend University of Havana gave us a very good perspective of Castro whom he knew from their youth as students. Said
many times Castro does not trust the left. Considers Cuba a true "socialist" (but bankrupt)
empire. Castro almost lost Cuba during his African adventures when the South Africans slaughtered his soldiers, over 5000, of whom have never been accounted for. Our major problem in Canada is the blatant untruthful and manipulative Media, which could be broken in two by the effect
of boycott: something the Scots Irish brought with them to the former British colony - MacLeod

Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-06-10 10:00:39 AM


I pop on here every couple months or so, usually for a good laugh. I've noticed that everytime I show up and get up to date on what you morons have been discussing, you are becoming more and more desperate. You've lost the Global Warming debate, your buddy Stephen W. Harper is losing popularity faster than Paris Hilton, and your Alberta con-servatives are slipping. Now, instead of debating the issues, you are debating how the Left think. Well, you see, the left has already done that about you guys, and we've decided to hand it over to Psychologists instead to try to figure out how you got your mental condition. You ultra-righties are like schizophrenics we see on the streets: we see you, hear you, know that you have a mental disorder, and just walk by and feel sorry for you.

Posted by: Lefty_99 | 2007-06-10 10:36:57 AM


'Lost the global warming debate'? I don't think so. It was lost years ago when the Liebrals refused to implement Kyoto. They knew full well that the huge amounts of taxpayer's money required to abide by Kyoto would turn the voters against them. Mr. Harper had no choice but to find an alternative. In hindsight, abandoning Kyoto was exactly what the fight against global warming needed. So, far from losing the debate, the fight now can begin in earnest and on better terms than the Kyoto enthusiasts could ever offer.

Paris Hilton was never popular.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2007-06-10 11:17:26 AM


Leftism is a serious mental disorder with all the symptoms. Those afflicted remain in permanent denial of reality and they are full of envy and hatred.

Perhaps the best treatment would be to exile them to Cuba in order for them to have to face their dream world.

Posted by: Alain | 2007-06-10 11:20:40 AM


"Perhaps the best treatment would be to exile them to Cuba in order for them to have to face their dream world."

Oh, no! That would be cruel & unusual punishment.

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-10 11:26:50 AM


Leftism is not a mental disorder. Rather it is based on lack of self-confidence, and a belief that the prosperity of others comes not from hard work but exploitation. This is why they constantly demand redistribution of wealth, the destruction of institutions, and the elevation of their people.

They know they can't get it through democratic means - for very good reasons - so they demand radical action (Greenpeace, OPAC, that lunatic in Vancouver who tried to evict Olympic committee members, etc.)

Kyoto was so appealing because it promised to extract large sums of money to 'help' save the planet. Thank goodness common sense prevailed on that one.

If you need proof of what life is like under leftist rule, look at East Germany, Cuba, North Korea, and Toronto. Nuff said.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2007-06-10 11:57:57 AM


I would tend to agree that what is labelled "left" (mostly by those on the other end of the politcal spectrum often lacks in substance. There is nothing wrong with wanting a better world, what tends to slide is how to get there and identifying the obstacles. This is mostly through an economic and class analysis, but it is increasingly social, given the diversions created by racists and the religious right.

Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-10 12:05:04 PM


Hey Leftie, I have no idea who you are, but I can tell you by your post you are a typical leftist.

You announce some kind of victory without ever achieving anything. Are you saying global warming and its so called causes have been proven? What planet are you from? We can't predict 4 days straight, but leftie can predict 100 years into the future.

The problem with the left is that it's trapped in an idealist world that does not exist, I don't think it's bad to want everything rosy, but you guys need to wake up and look at reality first.

Have you ever thought of the sheer madness leftist homosexuals have been spewing regarding Islam? In Britain a hardcore group of homosexuals (sorry the name of their organization slipped my mind, it may be outrage) has come out and said to the Muslim community that they need to band together to fight homophobia and Islamophobia together.

Wow! Unreal uh? That's like the Jews approaching the Nazis to band together against anti-Semetism, or the mosquito banding together with bug zappers. The problem with the left is that it left common sense behind.

Here's a link for you on global warming

http://www.theguyfromboston.com/playvideo.asp?video=/videos/April2007/Global_Warming.wmv

Posted by: niv | 2007-06-10 12:14:56 PM


The Leftoid does not read links. He claims to, but then shows his ignorance by asserting things that the article contradicts. He's heavy into smoking weed, so that's understandable.

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-10 12:19:30 PM



If you think about it, the Left is just like Catholics used be ... guild-ridden, judgmental, and fearful.

They have no god to comfort them, but rather big government to lobby. Lobbying is a lot like praying.

The Global Warming issue is quickly being reduced to a laughable topic used more and more by stand up comics and people in general. It is a big scam, and will been seen to be so within a few years when none of it's dire effects come to pass.

Meanwhile it's a great excuse to go buy a new car so show you care and soon we will be filling our landfills with discarded mercury filled light twists. They are not bulbous but twisted so ... what else can we call them.

Yes .... the ice packs on Greenland will recede and farms and ranches will appear, the north west passage will be open year around to move all the newly and abundantly produced food stuff and then we will all die or something. I'll to check with Gore and Suzuki on what it is that will kill us on a warmer more productive planet. Maybe the Islamic Jihadists. Mmm maybe that is the real problem we face.

But I digress.

Posted by: Yanni | 2007-06-10 12:33:21 PM


Keep digressing, Yanni!

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-10 12:43:07 PM


A quick thought for Lefty. I just began monitoring this and a few other rightist blogs. It's been instructional, but also heartening. Reform, in its latest Harperite garb, is intellectually bankrupt and appears (for the most part) incapable of debate or holding a thought. This "view of the left" posted for comment demonstrates how clearly this tendency underestimates the majority and how willing it appears to be to simply "argue" by repeating its own dogma and insulting anyone who disagrees. The best example is the insular view it carries on climate change. This view perfectly reflects the dishonesty of the Harper approach - pretending concern, while fiddling in Rome's ashes.

Nice to see the game is not working in Harper's favour. The Right is again fracturing with a new group, including some who present this website, tearing away from those who likely believe themselves to be centre ight. Latest polls out of Atlantic Canada show the Conservatives dropping like a stone, particularly in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia. Harper's buddy, Charest, is in bad shape. There are no inroads being made in Ontario. The NDP in Manitoba is confirmed as powerful. Saskatchewan is open to the left thanks to the attacks on the marketing board and other issues. In B.C., the right wing government appears strong, but the calm is before the storm as its past actions come back to haunt it. In the North, there is a need for governemnt action and support that does not fitwell with the Harper philosophy.

That leaves Alberta, and one wonders what will be left when the resources either destroy the environment or run out.

Coming back to the posting itself, it is true there may be too much emphasis on the left about social concerns, but even this is too narrowly presented. Understanding the left without discussing the illegal wars in Afghanistan and Iraq or considering the African tragedies and the Harper response (costing Canada's reputation so dearly)is impossible.

We have not always been wrong even amongst those who are clearly not lefties. Chretien kept us out of Iraq and signed on to Kyoto. Martin made responsible pledges to African aid. Neither were "leftists", but both were able to do the correct thing and deserve recognition for this.


Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-10 1:46:31 PM


You're right Munroe. The problem is that these people don't want a better world. They want war in the Middle East, they want global destruction due to climate change, they want Africans to suffer from poverty and disease because it furthers their cause. One thing the USA and capitalsim proved is that in order to get rich, you need others to suffer. They think the Soviet Union was this awful country, meanwhile the USA ruined many more countries and lives to further their cause. People on the right lack morality, compassion, and pure thought, and to prove that, you need look no further than their poster boy George W.

Posted by: Lefty_99 | 2007-06-10 1:53:50 PM


Neither were "leftists"

Yeah, right. They call themselves Liberals, but we know what that means. They brought us homosexual marriage, for example. That's a centrist policy? Ha!

Trudeau was a Liberal, too. Loved Castro and gave us a Charter that doesn't recognize property rights. That's a centrist policy? Ha!

You have Leftoids and extreme Leftoids. One says what's needed to attain power while the other spouts their ideology, knowing the former paves the road for adoption of their ideas, albeit at a slower pace.

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-10 1:55:12 PM


"They think the Soviet Union was this awful country"

That's why they had to erect a wall in East Berlin - to force these "lucky" citizens from escaping. How many millions did Lenin, Stalin and their cohorts murder? Tens of millions, starting in the Ukraine where they caused the starvation death of the kulaks.

Ask the now free Czechs and Poles today if they'd like to return to Communism. To a man they'd say: NO! It is they who are going to install the defense system that the US wants to protect them from missiles from Iran & the Isalmofascists.

But the weedhead surfer thinks this was a wonderful country to live in. I guess weed DOES affect one's ability to reason & think clearly.

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-10 2:03:22 PM


Just read your last post Munroe, and it may be the most intelligent thing I've ever read on this blog. We are totally on the same page. The people on here are extremists and think anything that doesn't fit into their ultra right-wing ideas is automatically communist. But that is typical of these people. When Canada began debating the idea of Universal Healthcare, the USA began to get worried that we were being taken over by communists and sent spies into our country.
You are also right about the growing unpopularity of Stephen W. Harper. His image of being this moral guy is going down the toilet after lying about income trusts, failing to show up for the AIDS conference hosted in his own country, delivering a garbage environmental plan, appointing a senator, having a smear campaing against Mr. Dion, and now his most recent activities of not meeting with Bono and attempting to block an increase in aid to Africa. Its an outright embarrassment to have this knucklehead with his awful haircut, representing our country. Man, I miss Pierre Trudeau.

Posted by: Lefty_99 | 2007-06-10 2:08:37 PM


Ah, obc ... actually you have liberals and leftists - the liberals being clearly centrist. I will (and did) give some of them credit for having a moral compass. You underlined that by identifying gay marriage, relations with Cuba and the Charter as other examples. Stil, they were far from the left on actually challenging the class structure and the sell-out of our country to the few at the expense of the many.

Your points on Lefty's points are difficult to follow. The reformation of an authoritarian state in Russia was lost under Yeltsin. What may have been became corrupted as a class of vultures and criminals came to the fore. I don't know if it yet clear how Putin's regime fits into this change as it definitly has a streak of authoritarianism and corruption.

The rightist catchword "islamofacism" is telling as it places your comments amongst those endorsed by the extremists in the States. Certainly, there is currently a very difficult situation in middle Asia (and the Levant), but the roots of this canot be forgotten. It was the greed of the elite, through states like Britain and the USA, that destroyed fledgling nationalist democracies, supported the likes of the Shah and financed Saddam in Iraq and the radical islamists in Afghanistan that really created the conditions we experience today.

Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-10 2:19:11 PM


Obc, I never said the Soviet Union was this wonderful place, I was simply saying they its wrong to call them evil whilst calling the US good. Secondly, over 70% of Czechs are against the nuclear weapons being put in their country. Additionally, the reason that Czechoslovakia first elected the communists in 1946 was because they were stabbed in the back by the UK and the USA during WWII. They handed the Czechs over to the Nazis despite a treaty saying they would protect them. Classic American foreign policy.

Posted by: Lefty_99 | 2007-06-10 2:21:12 PM


Canada did not debate universal health care. In 1946 the Liberals saw a threat from the emergeing socialist left in Canada so they stole the concept and then imposed it. It would have been part of a Liberal platform in any event as the forties faded into oblivion.Cuba is not a workers paradise nor was it ever intended to be - Castro's model was East Germany, not the Soviet Union- at best Castro isawell educated ruthless Cuban Bandit - from a wealthy traditional Cuban family. Nova Scotian seafarers like my grandfather and his brothers had well established trading links in pre World War II Cuba. Ordinary citizens of Cuba despite Castro and his brother are impressive, but will never reach their full potential under a Castro regime. Mark my words when Castro dies, he will be provided with a High Mass in the Central Cathedral of Havana - MacLeod

Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-06-10 2:27:55 PM


Thanks Lefty for the thoughts. Can't say I miss Trudeau, but I give him credit for certain good works. My problem is I also remember the War Measures Act and wage and price controls. At least the Charter has survived, but it is too bad about the loss of Petrocan and the National Energy Prgramme.

Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-10 2:45:19 PM


Munroe and lefty:

Enjoying your love-in?

Posted by: set you free | 2007-06-10 3:17:00 PM


SYF - one thing I learned at Cocktail Parties in the Faculty Club of Dalhousie University is not to bother to impose logic and common sense when sucked in to debate with a member of the great unwashed left. Their standard is profound ignorance.Monroe refers to the "War Measures Act" dates back to 1942 -Trudeau was compelled to apply the Act which as a University Law Professor he would have been very familier with. There was a practical reason for Trudeau to visit Castro, which became a major trading partner for Canada particularly in agriculture,urban systems technology and medicine. It was a very smart move at the time, and brought a balance to the link between Cuba and the Soviets - met lots of Russians in Cuba, who could not beleive how lucky they got to be on Los Payes Del Esta in January
drinking rum and playing in the Ocean. Just saw Craig Oliver on CTV who like Robertson is looking more and more like he was embalmbed by the same guys who fixed up Lenin. Oliver announced the Harper Conservatives are gutted and dead in Newfoundland. What he is uaware of is that Mighty Mouse Williams has never been considered a real Conservative by people like Joh Crosby or the Late Craig Dobbin C.H.C Craig moved his world renowned
helicopter company out of NF becuase oif Williams
-Oliver thinks that former P>C MP Casey, who will defect to the Liberals in my opinion is important but the real news in NS is that two prominent Socialists are defecting to the Green Party, Epstein and Steele -one of whom will have to run against NDP MP Saint Alexa -which I, as a cynical old bastard find hilarious - nice end for the weekend. MacLeod

Posted by: Jack Macleod | 2007-06-10 3:41:06 PM


Yeh, Williams is the Mouse that roared, and roared. He better be careful what he wishes for, he may yet be wearing depends and sucking up will be hard to do.

Who can figure out the machinations of Atlantic Canadian politics anyway?
Casey says he's a Conservative and will always be a Conservative. Now would he tell a lie? If he goes to the Liberals after that statement, he's found a good home.

Posted by: LizJ | 2007-06-10 4:28:36 PM


"its wrong to call them evil"

An empire that kills tens of millions of its own citizens IS evil, but not so in your eyes, I guess. That says all I need to know of your moral structure.

The US NEVER had a treaty with Czechoslovakia pre-WWII. Get your facts right before you spew them out - you just make them up as you go along like a typical Leftoid.

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-10 5:36:37 PM


"over 70% of Czechs are against the nuclear weapons being put in their country"

Another made up story. First of all, the proposed defense system is not nuclear.

And that 70% figure is bogus. There is no source for that number - but if you can provide a link, I'll reconsider your being a first-class fool. Naturally, I don't expect to see such a link from you because it does not exist.

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-10 5:57:51 PM


Hey guys I'm as far from being left as there is, but I tell you I will never support the US carte blanche.

The US is responsible for more trouble in the world today than anyone.

The US is in the middle of partitioning Christian Serbia to appease the jihadist in the Balkans. This all comes after bombing the crap out of Yugoslavia on completely false accusations of genocide.

The US is now in Iraq when she should have been bombing the crap out of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Now they are alleging that Iran is supplying the Taliban with arms. Personally I find this a crock of shit, Iran is Shiite and is involved in a huge Shiite, Sunni rift in Iraq. This stinks to high heaven of another setup here as George Boosh, Albanian hero is either being played or is playing everyone on Saudi Arabia and Pakistan's behalf.

Turkey invades northern Iraq, the US is mum, that's ok it's our buddies the Turks again. If we look closely the US has backed the wrong side far too many times for me to support them. Russia on the other hand for some reason is still considered the Soviet Union, well it isn't. It has its problems but I personally welcome a counter balance and they incidentally are the only ones standing up to the partition of Kosovo.

Posted by: niv | 2007-06-10 5:59:04 PM


"The US is responsible for more trouble in the world today than anyone."

Islamofascists bombing or planning their attacks in:

Pakistan
India
Iraq
Iran
Yemen
Syria
Lebanon
Egypt
Kenya
Tanzania
Thailand
Israel
The Phillipines
Trinidad
Chechnya
Russia
Indonesia
Britain
Spain
Germany
USA
Argentina
Australia
Norway
Sweden
Denmark
Turkey
Canada
Jordan
Kashmir
Morocco
Algeria
Tunisia
Ethiopia
Sudan
Somalia
Kosovo
Bosnia

Now tell me again - who is the greatest threat to World peace???

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-10 6:07:37 PM


SYF is right (also correct).

Collective bargaining, collective/state ownership, collective/state central planning, collective guilt, collective .... The left devoutly ‘believes’ in the collective - even though it has been the source of it’s most dismal failures.

Munroe: “...the illegal wars in Afghanistan and Iraq or considering the African tragedies...”
More typically brainless lefty boilerplate. Either wrong or irrelevant or both.

Lefty_99: “...USA and capitalsim proved is that in order to get rich, you need others to suffer.”
More of the same brainless boilerplate. If there’s anything good happening in this world it is due almost entirely to individual liberty and free enterprise. Conversely any miseries (including or especially in Africa) are almost entirely due to its absence.

Posted by: JR | 2007-06-10 6:28:58 PM


. . . and their dictators who are the real cause of any African poverty - e.g. Mugabe.

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-10 6:33:51 PM


Hi Lefty,

Still flying the planet spewing CO2 chasing after that gnarly wave?

You've lost the Global Warming debate, ..."

I see that you have now graduated from being an expert on deciding which scientists are the climatological experts and you have instead moved right past them and decided for yourself the merits of the science.

Good for you. Don't ever let your lack of self-esteem get you down again. The last time we talked, I felt bad that I almost made your head explode.

I'm just glad you now have that anger problem under control. Don't let the foreign concubines see that side of you, though. You'll get a bad reputation as a loco gringo.

Later...Dude!

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2007-06-10 6:42:32 PM


h2o273kk9 ~

I just love watching you dissect the opposition with such skill.

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-10 6:45:40 PM


Lefty

" ...we've decided to hand it over to Psychologists instead to try to figure out how you got your mental condition. You ultra-righties are like schizophrenics we see on the streets: we see you, hear you, know that you have a mental disorder, and just walk by and feel sorry for you. "

I thought you handed us over to the psychologists. Yet here you are making a diagnosis like schizophrenia.

You are a first class surfer and serial womanizer.

You are an expert at climatology.

And now you are a clinical psychologist.

Is there anything you can't do? Please, do me next. What does my future hold? Will I find love. How many kids will I have?

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2007-06-10 7:12:07 PM


Lefty

" Secondly, over 70% of Czechs are against the nuclear weapons being put in their country."

Good. Then they won't mind anti-ballistic missile defense stopping any stray nuclear missiles headed their way.

Smart people, those Czechs.

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2007-06-10 7:15:04 PM


h2o273kk9 ~

Czech mate!

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-10 7:20:14 PM


obc I do not deny the threat that Islam is in the world today, what you are overlooking is that the only reason the major players in the mid east do what they do, is because the US has enabled them to.

Egypt, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Bosnia, and Kosovo just to name a few are recepients of billions in military aid from the US.

The US is responsible for funding the nuke Pakistan made, no fuss was made about them having weapons of mass destruction. The country with the most madrassas on earth, the country with more Islamic militants than any other was enabled by the US.

Please, when giving support to the US temper it, sometimes they do the right thing, but they have made far too many mistakes in the past few decades to just give support without concern.

I look at the atrocities and aggression Turkey has pursued for ever it seems, who stands by them at every turn the US? Who is the most vocal in pushing the EU into suicide by allowing Turkey's entry, the US.

Are you aware that Turkey has received more aid from the US than any other country has since WWII? That includes Japan who the US nuked twice and rebuilt.

So when I throw my support to the US (which I do often), I temper it with the knowledge that my friends down south are only a moment away from feeding an innocent to a tiger. Look no further than the Balkans to see that result.

Posted by: niv | 2007-06-10 10:48:13 PM


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6704669.stm
There ya go obc.

Posted by: Lefty_99 | 2007-06-11 1:18:49 AM


HA! The biased BBC? Without revealing who did the polling? Without telling folks what the question was?

How about this:

"If you knew that the world would come to an end one week later,
WOULD YOU SUPPORT THE US BUILDING A DEFENCE SYSTEM IN OR NEAR PRAGUE?

Polls can be manipulated by even the tone of the question. The fact that the BBC doesn't inform us who polled tells me they are hiding that fact. In not revealing the question, again they hide the intent of the questioner.

Some pollsters are consistently reliable like Rasmussen. Others are consistently unreliable like anyone CAIR hires.

The BBC is as reliable as the CBC and Al Jazeera!

In fact, I just took a poll that revealed 100% of Canadians support acquiring nuclear weapons and dropping them on Iran.

But then again, I didn't ask any CBC-listening, Birkenstock-wearing, latte-sipping, Globull Warming-believing folks. That might have skewed the results, I suppose.

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-11 3:21:13 AM


. . . and btw, many polls by the NY Times, CBS, CNN and the like do have the info - but at the end of the article. When you read it, they admit that 10% more DemoRats were polled vs. Republicans.

I wonder if that might affect the results. Hmmmmmm. Let me think about that.

(That's because most Reps. work and are not available when they call, whereas a higher percentage of DemRats rely on gov't. handouts and ARE home.)

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-11 3:43:32 AM


Niv

"The US is responsible for funding the nuke Pakistan made, no fuss was made about them having weapons of mass destruction. The country with the most madrassas on earth, the country with more Islamic militants than any other was enabled by the US."

This was under the Clinton administration which, in retrospect, wasn't very serious national or international security threats. Additionally, the CIA got caught flat footed when both India and Pakistan joined the nuclear club. Finally, the AQ Khan network was the beneficiary of North Korean (hence Chinese) technology transfer.

I'm a bit confused by your use of the term "responsible for funding".

Do you mean the US was helping them develop a nuclear energy program? Or they indirectly paid for it by providing financial aid in other areas that allowed Pakistan to divert funds to their nuke program?

In either case, Canada is equally guilty at least in India. Most likely in Pakistan as well.

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2007-06-11 6:07:38 AM


ok, here's a few more, the polls vary but they are all above 60%, and then there are the undecedided...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-06-05-bush-russia_N.htm?csp=34

http://launch.praguemonitor.com/en/97/czech_national_news/7482/

http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/news/index_view.php?id=251685

http://ww4report.com/node/3977

http://cndyorks.gn.apc.org/yspace/articles/bmd/czechs_fear_missiles_reject_radar.htm

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/12633

The last one is done by Angus-Reid and it says 83% are against it. Are you ever tired of being wrong??

Posted by: Lefty_99 | 2007-06-11 9:39:18 AM


lefty:

Do you always form your own opinions on the collective opinions of others?

Are you capable of independent thought?

Does being part of the borg make you feel safe against those dangerous independent thinkers?

That's the type of questions we all need to ask ourselves.


Posted by: set you free | 2007-06-11 9:50:45 AM


Oh, by the way obc, Kashmir and Kosovo are not countries.

Posted by: Lefty_99 | 2007-06-11 9:53:56 AM


HAHA SYF, you're accusing ME of not thinking independently? Do you actually read all the comments posted here? I don't even look at the names anymore because everyone just re-hashes what everyone else says. Thinking independently is a trait you must learn to use over time. Luckily, through my extensive travel and experience, I've gained that ability quite early in life. I see now how I was brainwashed, just as you all are but you'll never be able to shake it sitting on your couch in your trailer watching Nascar.

Posted by: Lefty_99 | 2007-06-11 10:03:01 AM


Here's a little video entertainment for you guys; I'm sure you'll all see a bit of yourselves in these people.

http://video.fosfor.se/next-country-to-invade

Posted by: Lefty_99 | 2007-06-11 10:18:58 AM


So since polls are all-important to you, Lefty69, I guess we should re-institute capital punishment in Canada since every poll in over a decade indicates that Canadians favour it.

Oh, & that gay marriage thing. You must oppose it too since a majority of Canadians oppose it too.

Posted by: obc | 2007-06-11 10:33:57 AM



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