The Shotgun Blog
Tuesday, June 19, 2007
A capital move
Canada's First Couple -- no, not Stephen and Loreen Harper but Maher Arar and Monia Mozigh -- are planning to leave Kamloops, B.C. and move to more appropriate environs for such a prominent pair: to Ottawa, where the $11-million-man can continue his doctoral studies in wireless engineering.
The high profile couple have announced they're leaving behind a $20,000 scholarship for "social justice," to be awarded to students at Thompson Rivers University, where Mozigh has been teaching. Read the complete Province story here.
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What a wonderful gesture! Despite the abysmal failure of the Canadian government in protecting a Canadian citizen from abuses by both the Syrian and American government, the couple is willing to share in the compensation paid.
It will certainly be dfficult for the correspondents who make continual negative comments about people of the Islamic fate to square this circle.
Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-19 10:49:26 AM
Social justice? Ha! Code words for socialism and indoctrination.
Posted by: obc | 2007-06-19 10:58:47 AM
I genuinely feel sorry for you because of the small typo that you made in your post when you were attempting to describe the Islamic "faith". In view of the context of the argument you were advancing, your obviously unintentional error becomes even more humorous.
Posted by: Brent Weston | 2007-06-19 11:02:13 AM
It would be interesting to see the responses - they would have to choose the better of two "evils" - Arar (a Muslim) or the Liberal government (under whose watch this happened). I say that the votes will be against Arar, simply because he is a) Muslim, and b) the US government continues to include him on their "no fly" list, which means he MUST be a terrorist.
The poster, O'Neill, sort of indicates where he falls: sardonic jab at "first couple" and "social justice" in quotes (likely a swing at those "leftoids" who dislike such confines as Gitmo and who dare to speak out against torture - which O'Neill likely supports against those that MIGHT be terrorists or at least LOOK like terrorists).
Posted by: Paul Gallagher | 2007-06-19 11:03:04 AM
The Gitmo prisoner do much better than Castro's prisoners in Cuban jails, but we must not mention that Castro inters his enemies - who include librarians and human rights defenders - not battle field combatants.
And let's not mention all who suffer from AIDS in Cuba who have been placed in camps for the rest of their lives with no physical contact with the outside world. I wonder how the Leftoids would react if PM Harper introduced such measures to Canada to prevent the spread of this disease.
Actually, I need not wonder. I know exactly how they would react.
Posted by: obc | 2007-06-19 11:10:20 AM
LOL, thanks Brent. You are correct it was a typo and should have read "faith". I'm glad you enjoyed the slip. Sometimes, there is too little humour in the world.
PG, your points are well taken.
Thank you, obc, for noting that social justice is foreign to your politics.
Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-19 11:13:18 AM
The "First Couple" provide a soul searching message
from the University of Nipissing North Bay Ontario
where Arar received an Honorary Degree recently
-Atlantic Canada Universities reserve their "Honoraries" for genuine contributors to mankind
like Nelson Mandela, and Dr. Jonas Salk. Arar will be welcomed in the notorious University of Ottawa and it's islamic horde of immigrant Muslims whose main goal in Canada is to unseat the current Government of Canada. Harper made an enormous error in judgement dealing with world class con man Arar. MacLeod
Posted by: Jack MacLeod | 2007-06-19 11:14:33 AM
obc, you make several good points about Cuba. But I don't understand something about "rightoids" - why is there always a bait and switch approach to addressing a point? We know Gitmo and torture used by the US is indefensible, but why introduce the obvious downside of Cuban dictatorship? Similarly, if one raises Israeli transgressions, there is always a response about Fatah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, etc (all of which are valid points but in no way dissuade anyone that Israel is wrong in its own way).
Posted by: Paul Gallagher | 2007-06-19 11:18:29 AM
I wonder why the Federal Gov't didn't press for some medical examinations on his so-called tortured body... So sad that terrorists can take advantage of the Canadian system.
Posted by: Winston | 2007-06-19 11:20:03 AM
"We know Gitmo and torture used by the US is indefensible"
I reject the premise. The only "proof" of torture at Gitmo are the allegations of the prisoners - the Al Qaida instruction book found in London tells them to always claim torture - and their sympathizers in the West who already hate the US.
Posted by: obc | 2007-06-19 11:21:51 AM
MacLeod, what has Arar done exactly? He took the Canadian government to task, which was righted by your beloved Conservatives for something they had no role in. It's like blaming the sexual assault victim because she has nice tits (in Arar's case, his Muslim identity). He's an academic - I have yet to see any evidence of him having "terrorist" ties. And Harper wouldn't have paid him a cent if he had a SHRED of evidence because Harper likes to play the "terrorism" angle more than his Republican heroes.
Posted by: Paul Gallagher | 2007-06-19 11:22:44 AM
Before you know it, he'll be running for Maher of Ottawa.
Posted by: set you free | 2007-06-19 11:24:18 AM
Winston, "so sad" that you're so ignorant. I'd like to see you get tortured, and then we'll do an "examination". Dick.
obc, the US has admitted to less than savoury "interrogation" tactics at Gitmo, and justified them as "necessary". You say "tomato", I say "tow-mah-to".
Posted by: Paul Gallagher | 2007-06-19 11:25:26 AM
Posted by: obc | 2007-06-19 11:27:29 AM
. . . and where are your protests when US soldiers are captured, blinded, castrated, and beheaded by the enemy? If there was some waterboarding, so what? They weren't killed - and certainly not tortured as the US soldiers were.
Posted by: obc | 2007-06-19 11:29:39 AM
obc, I take it back:
"In 1986, Guantanamo became host to Cuba's first and only McDonald's restaurant, as well as a Subway. These fast food restaurants are on base, and not accessible to Cubans. It has been reported that prisoners showing good behavior have been rewarded not only with dates, pita bread and even Twinkies, but also 'Happy Meals', hamburgers or Filet-O-Fish sandwiches from the McDonald's located at Camp America.
In 2003, Guantanamo opened a combined KFC and A&W restaurants at the bowling alley and a Pizza Hut Express at the Wind Jammer Restaurant."
So, no torture. Only the best fast food meals, and detention without charge or due process.
Posted by: Paul Gallagher | 2007-06-19 11:30:31 AM
obc, again with the bait and switch. For the record, I do not support beheadings (even a better reason for not being there in the first place, unless you have a "real" war to fight for). Is all dying the same? Is it worse to be beheaded or die from a two-tonne bomb being dropped on your house from 40,000 feet?
Posted by: Paul Gallagher | 2007-06-19 11:33:28 AM
"detention without charge or due process"
None needed for enemy combatants captured on the battlefield until hostilities have ceased. And without uniforms, they do not fall under Geneva Convention rules - which treaty they themselves have not signed or abide by these same rules.
Posted by: obc | 2007-06-19 11:33:42 AM
So why are they detained in Cuba and not the US mainland? Ironically, isn't that part of the judicial problem they're dealing with now - i.e. lack of jurisdiction. Man, you take it offshore to try to hide and downplay what you're doing, and you get bitten by the law of the land. Democracy is a bitch, I tell ya.
Posted by: Paul Gallagher | 2007-06-19 11:37:09 AM
I do not think that it was proven conclusively that he was tortured in Syria; if he was then he should receive retribution from Syria and not from Canada. Therefore, $11 million was way too large.
At the same time, Harper took the position he did about the allegations of Arar's terrorism based upon CSIS. Now CSIS may not know what they are talking about, but they are the advice Harper based his decision upon. Given that the CSIS data is presumed correct, Harper made the only decision he could under the circumstances.
Posted by: Brent Weston | 2007-06-19 11:37:55 AM
There is not a shred of evidence that Arar the con man was tortured in Syria where he is considered a citizen of Syria. Syria does not recognize nor accept "dual citizenship" A great deal of accurate information on the reason Arar was deported to Syria by US Security and Intelligence Agencies was published by David Frum. Arar was and remains a threat in certain US Agencies despite Harper's largesse. Inept investigation of Arar by the RCMP which was undermined by both Chretien and Martin
is the real problem for Canadians. There was no
proper due diligence in the Arar fiaso by a Canadian Judge who was unquestionably a Liberal political appointee. Eventually the Arar file will be reopened. My opinion is that Arar is an expert in designing electronic fused explosive devices. Israeli Mossad will know a lot about world class con man Arar. Students in North Bay call the University "Not Pissing" Former Corporal Zaccradelli who should have remained a stable boy in Regina, screwed up to protect his Liberal PMO mentors. Make a great book for Journalist Stevie Cameron. MacLeod
Posted by: Jack MacLeod | 2007-06-19 11:46:09 AM
Brent, thanks for taking this back on topic. It is always apparent that obc tends to let his own obsessions take any discussion off track. While I wuld love to debate the illegal detentions and torture at Gitmo, that's not where Arar was mistreated. The similarity ends th the fact he was a victim of the improper actions and paranoia of the Americans.
This said, your comments have no merit. Whether you believe Maher was tortured or not is irrelevant. Those with much more in depth knowledge have accepted this. Why was he moved through Jordon to Syria by the Americans, for a tea party?
A settlement is a settlement. Whether it was too large or too little is no longer up for debate. What is a year in prison is Syria worth? I don't think there's a "meat chart" like the WCB uses.
What still is extraordinary is how the Maher family has chosen to use some of this money. THIS decision shows he and his wife hold true Canadian values.
Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-19 11:54:24 AM
I am open to the idea that this has not yet been fully closed and I am certainly open to the idea that there is much more to Arar than has been made public. I simply mean that these things have to be determined in the correct manner.
I am also in favour of the Canadians receiving information from the Americans. However, the Canadians will have to make their own decisions in the end. It may very well be that his case will be re-opened. Until that happens, he remains a free man.
Agreed that the gesture of the scholarship is somewhat generous and certainly more than what the man and his wife are required or even expected to do.
Posted by: Brent Weston | 2007-06-19 12:09:00 PM
Thank you, Brent.
Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-19 12:14:39 PM
The conditions and terms of reference for use of the Scholarship are the key elements not the "gift" Arar can write off the Scholarship on his Canadian Income Tax Return. How many Jews will be considred for this "Scholarship" - I wager, none. This "generous gift"
will create many problems for the University and their Board of Directors plus mmebers of their Faculty -I wonder how many are Jewish. Venerable Saint Francis Xavier University "X" in Nova Scotia
has already run into many financial problems because of their Tenured anti semite and Holocaust Denier. Professor Shiraz Dossa. And "X is a real University not some pile of bricks in the middle of nowhere BC Canada (more or less) Macleod
Posted by: Jack MacLeod | 2007-06-19 12:36:09 PM
Jack, I hardly know where to start. First, on behalf of the faculty, administrtion and students at Thompson River University and the residents of Kamloops, I take great exception to yur rather ignorant remarks about a "pile of bricks in the middle of nowhere B.C.".
Secondly, you're suggestion of racial discrimination in the awarding of this scholarship is made without any factual basis. Are you suggesting that a jewish person could not qualify for a scholarship that promotes social justice? That's senseless. Maybe if there's an awards ceremony someone like Stephen Lewis, known for his social conscience, will present the Arar Award.
As you imply scholarships are simply tax breaks, please tell me if there is a Jack MacLeod memorial scholarship and what its for?
Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-19 1:10:09 PM
Tell you what Munroe - I really don't give a damm what you think about anything much less my remarks
-of course Arar will claim a tax "break" I have actually negotiated Scholarships in real Canadian Universities from International aerospace and technology companies - I do not consider the pile of bricks you refer to as a real University -save yoyr humor for somebody what gives a shit - MacLeod
Posted by: jackmacleod | 2007-06-19 1:24:43 PM
Well argued, Jack. I think Harper is looking for spin doctors, isn't he?
Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-19 1:32:58 PM
There is, for some of us a gray area surrounding the Arar affair. It's not absolutely clear as to why a citizen of Syria would be tortured in his own birth Country after being accused in the US. One would think Syria would honor him.
Those who are all-knowing in the case could perhaps explain it more clearly. Was it because he chose to be Canadian his homeland henchmen tortured him?
Where were those who were so eager to go to bat for Arar when a Canadian citizen of British origin, William Sampson, was fighting the Canadian Liberal government for help? Sampson was tortured, the evidence was there but Canada let him down and he chose to return England.
Did ethnicity play any part in these cases? If so, we're in even worse trouble than we realize.
Posted by: LizJ | 2007-06-19 1:57:58 PM
You gotta see this!
Posted by: obc | 2007-06-19 2:07:05 PM
I agree with you, Liz, about Sampson. The failure of the government to go to bat for citizens abroad. There was also a Canadian from here in B.C. that was held, essetially for ransom, in a Mexican jail recently (I forget his name, but he was of european ancestry, I believe). I'll try not to provoke a furour, but young Kahr hasn't exactly been given the attention a Canadian should expect. I'm sure there are other stories not making headlines.
It seems the negligence is not restricted to race, religion or political party. The difference with Arar is that he had never been charged with a crime and was scooped fom a third country.
Nevertheless, Liz, there is certainly a case for greater diligence on our government's part.
Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-19 2:13:19 PM
munro, I can see why you wouldn't want to get into a discussion on the Khadr gang.
The Khadr children were/are the victims of their own parents.
The mother has publicly stated she would be proud if her sons took part in suicide bombings.
It was a very scary interview on our own CBC with the mother and daughter covered in black burkas, we might say incognito.
If she is worried about her sons she can look in the mirror. Personally, I don't want them here, there is enough evidence to revoke their citizenships, they are enemies of our civil society. To defend them is to condone terrorism, that's what they're all about.
Posted by: LizJ | 2007-06-19 2:42:35 PM
Liz, this was exactly my concern. Taking the debate in the Khadr direction diverts it away from both the original topic, the Arar family gift and move, as well as the corollary issue of how the government treats Canadians in touble in foreign countries. That was my point.
Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-19 3:15:52 PM
obc, Thanks for the video link, Paul blew them, and me too, away, nice to see such an unassuming guy get such a reaction from everyone. Never saw Simon so melted!
Posted by: LizJ | 2007-06-19 3:19:38 PM
Ain't that the truth!
Posted by: obc | 2007-06-19 3:44:23 PM
We need to get those who breed their children to be suicide bombers, out of here. And they can take their kin with them. And I hope the door hits them on the head when they leave, and sinks some sense into them--bunch of low-life freaks!
And yes, the video with Paul Pott was amazing.
There is a little girl named Connie, who also sang on that show, and she also got a standing ovation, singing "Somewhere over the rainbow". I wept, I really did.
Posted by: Lady | 2007-06-19 3:45:52 PM
Agree with you completely.
munroe: We should discuss the Khadr gang more often, everywhere and anytime we can. Maybe someone will take notice and we can run them out of the Country.
There is no way they should live here in comfort and on our dime at that. They simply do not like us and wish us harm. Total misfits in our corner of the world.
After the old lady said she would be proud to have their sons take part in suicide bombings, she later said they are not terrorists or supporters.
They're friends of Bin Laden if that's any help.
Anyone silly enough to believe her?
Posted by: LizJ | 2007-06-19 5:01:19 PM
At the proper time and place, Liz. The only connection I can see to this topic is that Arar and Khadr are Canadians who's problems with foreign governments have been ignored by Canada. The facts are very, very different, but so are the facts with Sampson. How we deal with the other issues surrounding the Khdar's is a worthy topic, once he is back on Canadian soil and out of an illegal detention facility.
Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-19 5:26:25 PM
Speaking of Khadr, Terry has this update (if you have not already seen it):
Posted by: Brent Weston | 2007-06-19 6:45:34 PM
Social Justice means the government extorting money from those work to give to those who don't.
Posted by: Yanni | 2007-06-19 8:33:58 PM
Oh ya I forgot to mention ... they do that to get the votes of the people who don't work. The problem they keep having is the the people who are too lazy to work and usually also too lazy to vote. Sadly that doesn't stop them from continuing this disgusting practice.
Posted by: Yanni | 2007-06-19 8:36:07 PM
Yanni, a strange and disturbing attack on the concept of social justice. It really is difficult to fathom there is a group of people who cannot conceive that we as human beings bear a responsibility, not only to ourselves, but to others. A rather basic Christian concept, isn't it?
Social justice is certainly not the preserve of only the political left. I had cause recently to explore through the internet a number of groups, including one called Citizens for Public Justice. It appears CPJ's roots are in the movement to establish Christian schools, based in Alberta. I would think the best description of its adherents would be evangelical Christian; not normally understood as a leftist force.
CPJ appears to have evolved while maintaining its essential character. It is now active in various social justice causes.
My point, Yanni, is that simplistic knee jerk reactions and asessments are most often juvenile and narrow. The desire to attain a respectful and just society for all citizens enjoys broad support across the political spectrum. After thought if a person find this disgusting, I worry.
Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-19 11:13:37 PM
monroe, what worries me is that when the govt awarded large cash settlements in the past there has been a tremendous burden of proof on the complainant to prove their case. The govt has always required medical proof of things like torture which was bypasssed in this case.
I am concerned by the apparent muzzling of the RCMP and CSIS in this case. They weren't allowed to fully answer the questions put to them, for security reasons.
In other words, this is a very gray area pronouncing this man free of suspicion.
In past cases where the govt gave those awards for years of unjust imprisonment of falsely accused persons the rewards have also been much smaller (and much better proven).
Some news accounts say that in countries like Syria, leaving people alive is tantamount to saying they approve of them, torture being the way to validate the person in the eyes of the west, without actually killing them.
If Syria didn't actually care for the man, they would have beheaded him.
Just because we don't treat our people a certain way doesn't mean other countries are like us.
We shouldn't say that Syria's torture of Arar means he is blameless, nor should we conclude that the RCMP and CSIS were able to give all their information in the case.
Some caution is STILL warranted.
Wisdom is to err on the side of caution. And wisdom would be to give a cash award in line with what other falsely accused imprisoned Canadians have gotten for their sufferings (some of whom were in prison a lot longer than ARAR!)
oh and lest you argue that we don't torture our prisoners, that is ignoring what the general prison population does to other prisoners.
I don't think Stephen Truscott or the other falsely accused and imprisoned Canadians are being valued properly if this is the value of being falsely imprisoned and tortured.
Something just doesn't add up.
Posted by: canadian freedoms fan | 2007-06-20 11:09:28 AM
What really bugs me is that the US says they had more information on Arar than what Canada gave them and the alleged torture was carried out by Syria.
Yet, the financial burden was picked up by the Canadian taxpayer, who had the least to do with it.
I still maintain the reason Arar's lawyers did not go after the US is that there must have been some truth in the intelligence gathered by the US.
If the information was totally false, then Arar's lawyers would have been successful in a lawsuit in the US.
In other words, Canadian taxpayers were suckered in again to pay out for something they were not responsible for.
Posted by: set you free | 2007-06-20 11:19:18 AM
Tax me - I'm Canadian!
Posted by: obc | 2007-06-20 11:25:42 AM
There remains a heavy cloud over the whole Arar affair.
Why our government felt it our duty to pay a Syrian Canadian that obscene amount of our money for being treated badly by his birth country is beyond reason.
The Liberals did not go to bat for a British Canadian either and he got squat. He was tortured without doubt and is lucky to be alive.
It's only our money. We rescue Canadians of convenience who live full time in Lebanon. It seems a little outrageous we have to rescue people who CHOOSE to live in tinderboxes full time and contribute nothing to this country in taxes.
Posted by: LizJ | 2007-06-20 11:59:07 AM
cff, you an argue the size of the settlement (not award), that is legitimate. I happen to agree that some settlements for wrongful imprisonment appear less than adequate. I also think the Minister could have and shuld have intervened with Truscotte and causing him to endure further legal action has been apparently uncalled for. I am reluctant to say much more as the facts of every case are different and I'm not privy to all of those facts or what went into the negotiations.
I'm skeptical that the "muzzling" of the RCMP and CSIS was for what is now broadly held as "national security". My guess is there is the desire not to expose a level of incompetence. Look at what we are hearing about Air India.
SYF, as I understand there is a suit in the States. Correct me if I'm wrong. In any event, one can expect the Americans to claim more information to defend themselves. They know damn well the truth will never come to light.
OBC, I'll pass your message along to Revenue Canada. I'm sure they will be pleased to either accept a gift or audit your last few years of tax returns.
Of course, none of this detracts from the fine gesture of the Arar family.
Posted by: munroe | 2007-06-20 12:06:49 PM
People, no matter what their age, who throw hand grenades at American soldiers, have lost the right to cry to their homeland, if and when they have been caught by those they have committed crimes against.
When and if a Canadian commits a real crime, such as rape and murder, in another country, or attempted rape and murder, we facilitate justice--even if it is in another country. There was a case, no so long ago, of a man who went to Asia and raped children. Canada agreed with the extradition of that man, to go and face justice, in another country.
And they who choose to keep citizenship in other countries, that do torture, have also lost the right, in my opinion, to cry to other nations, when they get returned to that country.
I have no sympathy for Arar, and even mountains less, for Khadr and his opportunistic sicko family. Friends of terrorists are terrorists! And sympathizers of terrorists are terrorists--just sugar coated.
And yes, they need to leave.
We, the rest of us people who live here in Canada, have chosen to come here, for freedom. We should feel NO guilt at strongly encourageing those who come here to inflict their stupidity and lack of respect for freedom, onto others, to leave. There is only one group of people who fit that criteria--and if they do not like it, then they need to hear loud and clear, that they are not the kind of people that make up the fabric of Canada, and should now so choose to go back where they belong--amongst other so known disrecting freedom and democrasy monsters!
My sense in regards to those who are terrorist apologists, is that they are hear to exploit our system and good will against us. Well, NO! The buck stops here. And if that means they take a few BUCKS (bend over and receive your spanking) then so-be-it!
What I sense is that these apologists want Canada to feel that the life of an American soldier, is not worth respecting as a human being--that somehow we should be sympathizing with the aims of the terrorists. Well, NO!
We are not American, but there is no rationale that says we have to be disloyal to the same in regards to the respect we expect of our own soldiers, who are facing down terrorists in a world-wide effort to make real peace. We believe that you should not do to others, what you would not have them do to you. So, no way to those who sympathize with terrorists.
They who commit the crimes, and violate natural justice, should do the time. And, if that means they do their entire lives in a US prison, without ever having any hope of release, then so-be-it! The fact that they do not like how hot it is, and miss Canadian snow, is not my problem.
Canadians know it is wrong to throw grenades (or should know better) at other people's legitimate soldiers. When people do what Khadr did, they are commiting murder, or attempting, and that is wrong.
Just because the person is in uniform, does not mean they are open season. And, just because a person is without a uniform, does not mean they are exempt natural justice and laws--including military laws--especially since they have decided to redefine their soldiers as simply them being swarn into these groups, training to kill Americans, and going about doing that in civilian atire.
Since people like Khadr, have proven themselves to be danger to others, then by all means, they should be locked away forever. I have no sympathy for people like that whatsoever!
They can have their Korans and whatever other material they need, including halal or whatever, and Wallmart orange work suits, and a stinky bed frame, in a boring room, and that is it. And, shared with lots of other snoring terrorists and their horrible acquaintances. if they find their surroundings intolerable, then that is their problem. I, for one, could not care less. I feel terribly that people like that have made a religion out of hurting others, especially those of us who left other places, where we were being persecuted. All of us, who came here, came here to be free from terrorists. And now, they have decided to come here, I feel very strongly that we must block their entry, give them no ear, and throw whomever has gotten it here, out, and do so immediately without this stupid long hearing process.
You would not stand in front of a man raping a child and ask whether it is a violation of his rights, to stop him from raping the child, therefore we should not question whether someone is as as evil as evil can be, who goes about plotting against the west, while living in and off the west, and murdering western people, is having their human rights abused, when in fact they are getting three meals a day, and much more than their victims. Plus, a terrorist in jail means innocent people and good soldiers lives, are safer. That means, good on us! If that be offensive to someone who posts here, then you need to ask yourself why it is that you support that which would rather kill you, kill your loved ones, rape your babies, and steal everything you have, than look you in the eye and really be Canadian. If you are on some kind of a religious mission, and proud of it, then perhaps Canada is not the place for you.
We do not want terrorists and their sympathizers here.
Posted by: Lady | 2007-06-20 2:51:46 PM
Given there are 50 000 would be terrorists in Canada, this situation needs further investigation. US services did not clear him.
Why not ask Israeli services what they know about Arar?
Could we consider the whole situation including the Kadhr case a symptom of the chaotic situation in our justice system?
Posted by: Rémi Houle | 2007-06-20 8:20:20 PM
Now that Arar has a million of our dollars, I'm sure he could pursue the US for damages and pay whatever lawyer bills would come up.
Strangely, though, there's no news of any pending lawsuit in either the Canadian MSM or in the US.
Guess it was good enough to fleece the foolish first, rather than face some hard evidence in the US.
Posted by: set you free | 2007-06-20 11:08:06 PM
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