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Sunday, October 01, 2006

Polls Be Damned!

Brig.-Gen. David Fraser,

"I go to that hospital every day when there is a soldier that is wounded. I go over there to console a soldier, I come away inspired by their commitment and their determination to say, `I want to get back out there.'

"You know, polls be damned. With the men and women in this theatre and the support we get from the government, we're going to go through it. We're going to see it through." (emphasis mine)

Polls be damned, indeed...

And on the front page of Rabble, a animated gif of a yellow ribbon by Mike Constable. Click on the link. On one side, it reads "Support Our Troops" and on the other side it reads, "Get The Fuck Out".

Two points...

First, it is not at all uncommon (as a matter of fact it's too common) for certain members of the left to use profane language to make a point when it isn't required.

Secondly, I'll take my military advice from someone who is actually doing the dirty work, not some guy who can created a vulgar animated gif, the Jack Laytons of the world, or the type of people that would allow the posting of this piece of idiocy to a website and Rabble member "progressives".

If Brig.-Gen. David Fraser knows the mission, understands the mission and supports the mission, we should all be behind him and our soldiers 100% . That's what true Canadian values are.

Posted by Mike The Greek on October 1, 2006 | Permalink

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Comments

You are childish and wrong


"First, it is not at all uncommon ... for certain members of the left to use profane language to make a point when it isn't required."

This is silly, at best. People who fear words because they are "profane" are hard to take seriously. Even George W Bush uses salty language (as the unexpected recording of his conversation with Tony Blair at the G8 shows). Time to grow up, Mike, and stop thinking words are dirty. That's an 8 year old's game.

"If Brig.-Gen. David Fraser knows the mission, understands the mission and supports the mission, we should all be behind him and our soldiers 100%. That's what true Canadian values are."

No. 100% no. "Canadian values" are not to let generals establish foreign policy. Yes, we are wise when we listen to them about what is possible. Yes, we are wise when we listen to them about what military consequences of particular actions will be. But ultimately the decisions are and MUST be made based on weighing what is in the best interests of the country and of the world. On that score, generals - even brigadiers-general - have no greater insight than anyone else.

What is TRULY Canadian is for us to decide what is best in light of military counsel (among other counsels) and to pursue it. Using that test, our involvement in Afghanistan is the right thing to do and we should remain engaged there. Not because we defer to the authority of Brig.-Gen. David Fraser. But because we know for ourselves that it is the right thing to do.

Posted by: Mark Logan | 2006-10-01 8:55:27 PM


And we should trust our top soldier too!

Posted by: Winston | 2006-10-01 9:14:06 PM


Okay, okay, Logan, I guess ad hominems have some exalted primacy in your lexicon of discussion, and that support for what's right comes in second.

I mean, I might have put support for our troops first, but hey, who cares about order? I respect your conclusion, however you came to it. Cheers.

Posted by: EBD | 2006-10-01 10:54:17 PM


One thing I learned in the political wars over the past forty plus years, Polls can be bought. Virtually all "pollsters in Canada" have about the same credibility as a Fortune Teller. The Decima
Poll was bought by the same Media focused on undermining the Harper Conservative Government. More significant however to me is a report in the Telegraph, London UK that wounded British Paratroopers from Afghanistan recovering in UK Hospitals have been confronted and threatened by
Muslims. The same thing could happen in Canada.Canadians are always concerned when their
military are at risk, the military is after all, our families and neighbours. MacLeod

Posted by: Jack MacLeod | 2006-10-02 6:01:57 AM


Of course polls are bought and they always give you what you paid for, "You Won!".

Posted by: Liz J | 2006-10-02 6:38:37 AM


That's an 8 year old's game.
No,100% no, Canadian values....
Sorry Mark , but as a Canadian, you do not speak for me. Why what authority do you qualify to define 'Canadian values'. Have you bought into the fiberals & NDP's ideology. Is your voice the last word on the subject. Guess profanity is also high on your list which qualifies as a measure of intelligence!

Posted by: Frico | 2006-10-02 7:08:52 AM


My ancestors were born under Muslim rule and were freed when my great-grandfather and his generation freed themselves through war. That's right; killing, slaughter, murder, all that stuff we just won't countenance now. Fight them now or fight them later. But I suppose these aren't Canadian values, are they? (WWI/ WWII/ Korea/) No, these certainly aren't Canadian values.

Posted by: mike s | 2006-10-02 7:24:56 AM


Mark,

With respect to the vugarity issue, it is not childish if you manage to put it in a grander perspective.

Accepted vulgarity use can be considered a breakdown in societal civility. If you've spent any time on the blogosphere at all, you have seen that many "progressives" are inclined to name call and use vulgarity when they are perceived to be losing battles or if they don't personally like the people they are in disagreement with. The joke about racism has a fundamental truth to it. And the irony is that people like Kate at SDA have been accused of being a lesbian from people on the left, as if there is something wrong with that. It boggles the mind.
That being said, your opening personal salvo may say something about you as well.

Secondly, the issue of our troops in Afghanistan is becoming in the MSM the rhetoric from the left, such as the "Bring Them Home Campaign". That can be exceptionally demoralizing for our troops. I am exceptionally pleased that we have a leader that takes the attitude polls be damned. I mentioned nothing about military generals setting foreign policy. I understand the folly of that. But when we are in a foreign theatre of war, we support our troops 100%.

With respect to Canadian values, we are being constantly bombarded by politicians talking about "Canadian values". That was a shot back at them. To me, there seems to be a great divide occuring. There seems to be Western Canada values and Toronto values. And right now, they are nowhere near similar.

With that said, I defend the content of my post and on both fronts.

Posted by: Mike The Greek | 2006-10-02 8:04:48 AM


Those who cannot debate try to win the argument by force be that by shouting, ignoring the other side's arguments, or by use of vulgarities. Unfortunately, too often people are influenced by such tactics instead of by logic substantiated by facts. In the extreme cases, like the Islamists, violence is used. Just because it sometimes works, does not make it proper.

John M Reynolds

Posted by: jmrSudbury | 2006-10-02 8:52:22 AM


It is interesting to watch the virulently anti American Canadian press as they follow their American partners down the same path.

It has always been a tactic of the left to run polls in the demographic region they know will give them the response they want, then promote that as the will of the people, or the will of the country. Even if it means ignoring plain facts, or common sense.

It is no different down south with the Iraq war. Poll after poll, showing the hate for the war, yet in the biggest poll of all, the 02 elections, Bush won bigger than ever.

Still it is sickening to watch as the MSM continues to undermine the effort, and there is no question it is having an effect on the moral of the people. It is an unbelievable disgrace.

And now we se the same thing happening in Canada, Although a recent poll showed almost 80% of Canadians supporting the mission, all we hear about is this ridiculous poll. Instead of hearing about the over 200 to 1 kill ratio, all we hear is doom and gloom. Nothing on the fact children are now going to schools we have built, and women actually have rights. And many other upbeat stories.

This one sided skewed reporting is in no way healthy for the country, and one only has to look down south to see that.

Like the posters above mentioned, I am sick of seeing some flake like Jack Layton stand up on some soap box and scream about "Canadian values", and how he speaks for all Canadians. That petty, disgraceful little man has never spoke for me, and never will. The past Liberal governments have never spoken for me either.

The reason these clowns are out of power is because they tried forcing Toronto style values on the rest of Canada, the two are not compatible. It will never happen, I know I speak for many when I say I will never succumb to their supposed "set of values".

The only value I see coming from these people is the old, "if you stand for nothing, you fall for anything". These are not my values, and I do not believe they are the values of the majority of Canadians.

If they are, and the polls are correct, then god help us.

Posted by: deepblue | 2006-10-02 9:43:58 AM


For heaven's sake folks it's only the Leftists who know Canadian "values". Jack Layton is spouting Canadian values on all matters and remember Paul Martin on the election stump? He roared that Stephen Harper did not have Canadian values as he did his impression of a wind mill, flailing his arms in the air.

Posted by: Liz J | 2006-10-02 9:54:42 AM


I even remember Brian Mulroney blathering on about his opponents being ‘against Canada.'

It seems part of the accepted Canadian political rhetoric to portray oneself as a defender of Canadian values and all opponents as those who threaten Canadian values.

Gets pretty tiresome ... but as long as we understand the game, we can be amused for hours.

Posted by: Set you free | 2006-10-02 10:08:50 AM


I think it was Ambrose Bierce who said; "Patriotism
is the last refuge of a scoundrel" Union Army Civil
War Hero, newsman and editor, a force to be reckoned
with in the annuals of Journalism. In actual fact Layton's Father was an Ontario Conservative Cabinet
Minister under Leslie Frost and/or Bill Davis.He is a blatant opportunist like many in the Socialist Horde, such as Svend the Unlucky. MacLeod

Posted by: Jack MacLeod | 2006-10-02 10:40:40 AM


Portraying himself as the Great Defender , more like the Great PRETENDER, of Canadian"values", kinda didn't work for Paul Martin, so there's some proof the Rubes are onto him.

Posted by: Liz J | 2006-10-02 11:23:55 AM


Further to my previous point, for a person to consider himself a defender of ‘Canadian values', he must believe not only in his own superiority, but in the gullibility of the great unwashed.

Of course, since the great unwashed has a wisdom of its own, these snake-oil salesmen can only succeeed in fooling us some of the time.

Posted by: Set you free | 2006-10-02 11:33:01 AM


Remember the great mark twain saying, theres lies, theres damn lies, and then theres statistics.

Posted by: john a. | 2006-10-02 5:44:12 PM


Republican Majority (Republican) House Leader calls for Taliban to be included in Afghanistani government.

Chew on that oh you misguided rightwingers, you!
http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/ap/2006/10/02/asia/AS_GEN_Afghanistan_Frist.php

Posted by: Wandalady | 2006-10-02 5:44:26 PM


So I expect all you war loving, mean and nasty, Yosemite Sam types to go after this Senator who is all for letting the TALIBAN into the Afghanistani Government.

Posted by: wandalady | 2006-10-02 5:55:20 PM


Brig.-Gen. David Fraser needs TO SHUT HIS PIE HOLE or consider running for office so we can WHOOP is sorry military extremist arse and throw him out like the Canadian people are preparing to throw the bloody HARPER Government out on their arses!

Posted by: wandalady | 2006-10-02 5:57:31 PM


Canadians (at least normal ones) are SICK AND TIRED OF ALL OF THE MENTAL CASES THAT FREQUENT THIS PSYCHO WARD! You nutbars have been TOO vocal for TOO long and you are about to lose your sorry Reform Party (or whatever you call your stinkin' party these days) OUT OF OFFICE! Go Canadians Go!

Posted by: wandalady | 2006-10-02 5:59:24 PM


wandalady,
Would you kindly get to the point.

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2006-10-02 6:02:47 PM


people that serve there country in the military, do so out of duty and love for there country. they enter a career unlike any other where your country asks you to kill or be killed. and usually they handicap your survival with politics and poor equipment. unless your willing to go and so such duty, dont shame yourself by knowing what you talk about. in fact you would not be stating your views right now if it wasnt for cdns putting on the uniform. you would be speaking german or japanese or russian. yes they fought even for the stupid like you

Posted by: john a. | 2006-10-02 6:04:41 PM


So - Republican Senators want to talk with the Taliban. Hmmm.

So - Republican Senators want the Taliban to be in the government. Hmmm.

So - extreme right wingers are going to sorta ignore that hmmm.

So right wing nutbars are confused. hmmm.

Posted by: wandalady | 2006-10-02 6:09:06 PM


wandalady,
Thank you for the summation.

May I ask what it is you want Canadian conservatives to do about this?

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2006-10-02 6:13:21 PM


Acknowledge that there have been many attacks from this site on those who have questioned the manner in which the military mission is behind handled, that would be a start.

My loyalty as a Canadian citizen has been challenged and mocked on this site for even asking minor questions about the goals of the mission.

Canadians who are not conservatives have been ridiculed, attacked, vilified and I find that offensive and repulsive.

Posted by: wandalady | 2006-10-02 6:38:06 PM


wandalady,
I acknowledge that this has happened here. I cannot apologize, however, as I haven't done this. That is for others.

Having said that, my question remains. What would you like Canadian conservatives to do about an American senator with whom we most likely disagree? That was the thrust of your post.

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2006-10-02 6:49:33 PM


Consider his arguments. They are not unreasonable -

LATE BREAKING - Republicans are panicking at his remarks and there early reports that the Republican National Office is claiming he was taken out of context. Just consider his arguments.

PS - I appreciate your comment

Posted by: wandalady | 2006-10-02 7:07:52 PM


wandalady,
Ok, I will consider his arguments. After I make my decision, if I still disagree with him, will you respect my decision?

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2006-10-02 7:10:54 PM


what some american politician thinks or doesnt think is nothing. what is importent is that two major parties in this country, which in many ways is more democratic than the states, has decided right or wrong that troops are to be used in that complicated country. we cant just now walk away for a multitude of reasons. and our troops need to know that we all stand behind them. they deserve that from us, because its there lives that are on the line. they believe in the mission and they are the ones that are doing our traditions proud. god bless them

Posted by: john a. | 2006-10-02 7:19:19 PM


Wandalady,
You may have noticed that the folks here are inordinately fond of the application of force as a one-size-fits-all solution to any problem.
If they're not threatening those who disagree with them (lefty academics, Liberals and other non-conservatives, must be "dealt with") they're talking "nuking" Tehran or Khandahar, "wiping out" Hezbollah and slaughtering Muslims. The notion that a conflict can be resolved by any means other than total defeat or the extinction of the enemy is apparently alien to them.

In that light, you might consider them as being on their best behaviour when they merely question your patriotism.

Posted by: truewest | 2006-10-02 8:30:55 PM


so as a cdn that has done his duty and seen the horrors of war including seeing my best friend in my entire life have his brains pour out into my lap, and yet still believe in our military and its traditions, and in our countrys proud past and present, that must make me unpatrioic, while those who generation after generation, think its relevent to go to downtown univeristies and speak loveingly of che and cuba and hang flags in your windows and be trendy. but you and yur protected friends and beliefs are paid for by our blood dont ever forget that when yur pissing on a memorial

Posted by: john a. | 2006-10-02 8:43:11 PM


Wandalady,

truewest said,
"If they're not threatening those who disagree with them (lefty academics, Liberals and other non-conservatives, must be "dealt with") they're talking "nuking" Tehran or Khandahar, "wiping out" Hezbollah and slaughtering Muslims."

Given my respectful listening to your concerns, would you agree with me that truewest is quite wrong in this reprehensible stereotype?

Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2006-10-02 8:49:21 PM



British in truce talks with Taliban:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2383232,00.html

Posted by: wandalady | 2006-10-02 10:57:20 PM


So let mer review:

Something is happening here ......

1)Senate Majority Leader says Taliban should be placed in coalition Afghanistani government.

2)British are in secret truce talks with Taliban.

3)59% of Canadians state Afghanistan is a 'lost cause'.

(the wind has shifted - something is changing)

Posted by: wandalady | 2006-10-02 11:01:23 PM


It's really quite simple Wandawench, we are losing the war on terror.

Really quite amazing isn't it to see the massive military victories in the field by the western Armies, but we can't win a war because of the weak kneed reaction and outright capitulation from the likes of you.

Does that make you happy to be on the losing side? We suck, our leaders suck, our military sucks, our country sucks. That is the message you and your ilk have been putting out since the war on terror began.

You, and people like you, make me sick to my stomach.

Posted by: deepblue | 2006-10-02 11:36:43 PM


Deepblue said, "but we can't win a war because of the weak kneed reaction and outright capitulation from the likes of you." HUH... Harper and Bush are losing the war on terror because of little old me ....? Deepblue said, "You, and people like you, make me sick to my stomach."
Hmmm... you are one SICK and TWISTED puppy. Your logic is illogical. Your world view is in a minority compared to your fellow citizens and we are not going to let you yell us down anymore.

The wind has shifted .... something has changed. Evil right wingers are in decline, about to lose power.

thank God!!!

Posted by: wandalady | 2006-10-03 12:06:23 AM


h2o,
If you've been respectful in your exchange with wandalady, I'm sorry you felt I lumped you in with the thugs. That wasn't my intention.
That said, the thugs are thick on the ground here.

Posted by: truewest | 2006-10-03 12:30:21 AM


wanderinglady
Its time you got fitted out for your burka
As well you could start throwing out everything else you own including the car keys as you will no longer be in a position to own anything yourself.
That too includes your computer my dear, seeing as under sharia you'll be just another mindless chattel.

You Go Girl!
My heartfelt congatulations...on your new life.

cheers

Posted by: in ques t | 2006-10-03 4:45:48 AM


truewest,
"If you've been respectful"

Not "If" but "As".

"I'm sorry you felt...". Normally, I'd jump all over this as deflection. However you later said
"I lumped you in with the thugs. That wasn't my intention. "

Therefore, apology accepted.

"That said, the thugs are thick on the ground here. "

Please keep this in mind when a righty starts lumping the lefties together. It goes both ways.


Wandalady,
You haven't answered my question. After I have reflected on the American senator's thoughts, if I still disagree, will you respect my decision though we, too, disagree?


Posted by: h2o273kk9 | 2006-10-03 5:45:24 AM


h20273kk9, yes. AND, I will not be abusive to you for the opinion you hold. That is my basic point, other than you and perhaps one or 2 others, anyone who wants to talk about the goals of the mission are vilified. (Don't you get frustrated with the behaviour of some of those who agree with your position?)

Something has changed with many people who have a right wing political base. There is an angry and nasty behaviour that I have to attribute to fear.

Canadians have always been able to have dialogue over difference of opinion without all of the abuse. What is going on with that?

Posted by: wandalady | 2006-10-03 6:40:54 AM


h2o,
I stand corrected: "As you've been respectful"

Posted by: truewest | 2006-10-03 8:03:09 AM


WackyLady,
you come here on a righist blog and call us all kinds of derogatory names for our beliefs and THEN you have the nerve to talk about respect?
Why don't you and LeftOff_99 and TrueLeft and all you other commie morons just f-off.

(PS I guess Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin et al never solve any problems by force. Bet you're a big fan of those wondefully 'progressive' Communist Chinese too)

Posted by: Stevie Eye | 2006-10-03 10:36:18 AM


People like you are not here to debate issues; you come here to disrupt the dialogue and generally raise hell.
Oh,and by the way CAPS MAKE YOU LOOK REALLY REALLY STUPID DUMBASS!!

Posted by: Stevie Eye | 2006-10-03 10:48:24 AM


Oh yea and in case you get all "I'M not disrespectful" on us, here's a reminder

------------------------------------
Canadians (at least normal ones) are SICK AND TIRED OF ALL OF THE MENTAL CASES THAT FREQUENT THIS PSYCHO WARD! You nutbars have been TOO vocal for TOO long and you are about to lose your sorry Reform Party (or whatever you call your stinkin' party these days) OUT OF OFFICE! Go Canadians Go!

Posted by: wandalady | Oct 2, 2006 5:59:24 PM
-----------------------------------------

Real respectful.

Posted by: Stevie Eye | 2006-10-03 10:54:07 AM


Left have to use bad words, as for one, they are neither ladies, nor gentlemen, and two, because it halps them cover the fact that like animals that "f**k", their thoughts are as meaningless, and less than thought out. And yet, they use those words for three, because bad words symbolize power to them. The use of the bad word, offends, and is one step away from an act of violence. And, for four, this goes along with their backing of terrorism, because first they start with bad words, and then they scream and yell. When that fails, they attack fences that are there to keep them out and safe. Then they riot in the streets, and hurt themselves and other people. Once that is exhausted, they lick their wounds, and associate themselves with other causes that are inclined to go all the way, and murder people, to get their point across. They hang with those who would kill, and make their point, not just their point, but their aim as it always has been, from the very beginning.

They really don't come for peace. They really do come for war.

Posted by: Lady | 2006-10-03 12:40:30 PM


God you people are idiots. I see, so we don't agree with you so we must be communists and terrorists. That is one aspect of conservatism that really bugs me; you only see black & white, good & evil. You only see two sticks in the ground, when normal people see the grass in between them. That is why you are unable to see anyone's point but your own; that is why conservatism can never be successful in the long run. You can't govern a country, or run your own life for that matter, when you suffer from such short-sightedness. I can attempt to drill this into your head but you will only regard it as communist propoganda.

Posted by: Iggy_for_PM (aka Lefty_99) | 2006-10-03 12:50:01 PM


There's none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Sounds like you, Lefty.

Any questions?

Asking questions is the best way to learn, after all. And, oh left one, you have much to learn.

Posted by: Set you free | 2006-10-03 12:55:26 PM


Exactly, that's the word, "blind". That's why seeing things like you do, makes you the people you are. When you have such built up anger and hatred, you fall into the conservative trap of selfishness and polarisation. It's a very common ailment, and the only cure is, wait for it, opening your eyes; although opening your heart has been known to work as well.
Don't lecture me on asking questions and that I have lots to learn. I've explained my past on here many a time, and that is the reason why I know I'm right in my thinking. The key is asking the correct questions. "How can we kill all the Muslims" is not the correct question. "Why is there so much death, hatred, and suffering in this world" is the right question; the answer by the way is because of people like you.

Posted by: Iggy_for_PM (aka Lefty_99) | 2006-10-03 1:05:02 PM


I'm just asking you to ask questions if you'd like to know what people really believe.

You are not qualified to lecture yet, because you are still out of your intellectual league.

Whenever I read your posts, I am reminded of Rob Schremp. He's a hot-shot hockey player and leading scorer in all of junior hockey last year. Yet, for the second straight year, he was cut the Edmonton Oilers even though he continues to talk a pretty good game.

That you're above your intellecutal capability in this league is pretty apparent in your continued presumptions and the way you toss around baseless accusations without offering any proof of your stereotypical caricatures.

If you have graduated from a mind-reading course, then I apologize.

Otherwise, I will continue to consider you a mental midget, since that's what you have proven to be beyond a reasonable doubt.


Posted by: Set you free | 2006-10-03 1:25:47 PM


Oh yeah. Almost forgot.

A mental midget incapable of enjoying unprotected sex.

Posted by: Set you free | 2006-10-03 1:26:47 PM



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