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Sunday, September 03, 2006

The meaning of a "meaningless" conversion

I never quite understood why Muslim terrorists, like those in Gaza who kidnapped the two FOX News journalists, would consider a forced converstion to Islam something valuable. Didn't they know that Western, secular journalists wouldn't mean it -- that, to them, claiming they believe in Allah is about as distasteful as claiming they believe in the Loch Ness Monster? Surely they knew that it meant nothing to the journos, if it meant saving their lives, and that they would immediately renounce (or ignore) their forced conversion upon release (with a few troubling exceptions)?

I didn't quite get it until I read David Warren's recent column on the matter:

Why did [the terrorists] bother to make the video? Didn’t they realize conversion under duress means nothing? That no one, East or West, would take it at face value?

They didn’t make it for face value. They made it to show the whole Muslim world, via satellite television, what wimps these Westerners are. That they’ll do anything at all to save their lives, that they don’t think twice about it. That is the substance of most Islamo-fascist propaganda: that the West consists of straw men, of men without chests, of men easily pushed over.

These conversions under duress do have an enormous meaning after all: they are proof and encouragement to Islamofascists that while the West looks physically mighty indeed, it will do or say anything for relief.

It doesn't even need to be a life or death situation; mere political uncomfortableness is often enough for capitulation these days. I recommend you read Warren's whole column.

UPDATE: I see that Mark Steyn's column today is on the same theme. Here's how he puts it:

Not even the dumbest jihadist believes these infidels are suddenly true believers. Rather, it confirms the central truth Osama and the mullahs have been peddling -- that the West is weak, that there's nothing -- no core, no bedrock -- nothing it's not willing to trade.

Posted by Ezra Levant on September 3, 2006 | Permalink

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Comments

Well Ezrra ... I did this post on August 30 on this very topic.

I titled it "David Warren's fan base shrinks by one"

Check it out here.

http://tinyurl.com/qz6y8

Posted by: Duke | 2006-09-03 10:08:49 AM


Although, I will add that ... rather than siding with Warren's view that these guys should have chosen death over lying to their captors was stupid and is not a very good litmus test for our reslove to beat the bastards.

That is a much larger issue that needs to be dealt with by our leaders not the pawns in the field.

I don't argue that the west is complacent and morally weak, it surely is, but that is no reason for a simple reporter doing his job to die.

The muslims lie as a matter of course in our countries to avoid prosecution, why shouldn't we lie to them to avoid death?


Posted by: Duke | 2006-09-03 10:14:52 AM


To NOT agree to convert would have been incredibly stupid.

Whether these guys are religious or not doesn't matter - it was simply a smart thing to do in order to stay alive.

I cannot believe anyone, seriously, suggests that these guys should have refused and then be killed. No one can be that extreme (except, perhaps, the religion-fascist types).

Btw, another smart thing to do, in order to stay alive, would be to fight hi-jackers in an airplane. To sit back and pray for the souls of the hi-jackers surely does not help.

Posted by: Johan i Kanada | 2006-09-03 10:25:08 AM


It's not a sign of weakness to convert to Islam under duress....perhaps those who value martydom, and who don't value life, see it as such....but, when your enemy is insane, it doesn't matter what they think really, does it?

They just need to be stopped.

Posted by: anonymous | 2006-09-03 10:28:45 AM


One more thing after readin steyn's piece.

We may be a weakened society, but many of use are not mindless. There are better ways to die fighting the terrorists and having your head cut off for not being willing to tell a lie is a bad way.

I would be willing to die fighting them in the field or on an ariplane as described above, but not a useless death over a propaganda film to make a point to the muslim world that has already been make a thousand times and will add little their resolve to kill us all anyway.

Christ ... do we love life or not. If not, then I suggest you already share muslim values ... if you do, then you will do what you must to live to fight another day and die with dignity like a Klingon .... in battle!

Posted by: Duke | 2006-09-03 10:32:51 AM


The Qu'ran forbids forced conversions:

2:256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Clearly these terrorists are misrepresenting their faith on others. They, not we, are the infidel.

16: 105. It is those who believe not in the Signs of Allah, that forge falsehood: it is they who lie!

106. Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Chastisement.

107. This because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter: and Allah will not guide those who reject Faith.

108. Those are they whose hearts, ears, and eyes Allah has sealed up, and they take no heed.

109. Without doubt, in the Hereafter they will be the losers.

---

This "Azzam the American" made an interesting, if delusional, video appearance yesterday. He said that the only way to prevent future attacks was for America and the world to convert to Islam. If we don't, then it's our fault.

Two criticisms emerge: 1) this means submitting to the whims of Al Qaeda and other Islamofascists, who have shown no reluctance whatsoever in killing other Muslims. Zarqawi is proof of that - he slaughtered Shi'ites by the hundreds as willingly as he killed Coalition soldiers.

2) That this guy is a sick, twisted lunatic who uses his new-found religion to act out his anti-social fantasies. The irony is that Osama et al have found a perfect stooge to control and manipulate for their own ends. If he thinks converting to Islam will save him, he's in for a head-splitting surprise.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2006-09-03 10:41:56 AM


Zeb,

What's your point?

Posted by: Duke | 2006-09-03 10:45:45 AM


David Warren has 2 points – saving their skins is one thing but not even feeling guilty about caving-in or expressing their embarrassment that they wished they could have endured more before caving in - is another thing. That’s the real point - these guys did nothing to reverse their conversion when freed. The West is what the genius of OBL discovered – the weak horse – no guts, no values, undefined.

The West has become like PM Dithers – we stand for nothing. Multi-culti rules the day, all cultures are equal, even those that suppress woman. Political correctness in the MSM and academia make it seem that compromise is more important than taking a stand and defining our values and our culture. Hence the Dippers and Liberals are upset that Harper took a stand with Israel; they would have rolled over so that they could carry on being “the honest broker” standing for nothing – they actually think that not taking a stand is morally superior – it’s nuts. What have we become?

People like George Clooney will bravely stand up amongst his fellow travellers in Hollywood – he’ll say America is becoming fascist (as it fights for freedom and liberty from Islamic Fascists). Meanwhile Hollywood freely makes a movie about the assassination of its President. It’s bizarre. We’ve become weak-horse Clooney’s and we think it’s noble.

Posted by: nomdenet | 2006-09-03 11:00:07 AM


Duke: my point is that these groups are distorting their faith as revealed in the Qu'ran for their own political agendas. We in the secular world have to see this, because we simply can't lump all Muslims together like they do to us.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2006-09-03 11:07:56 AM


I submit that when sitting on the floor with a man hooded man standing over you with a head hack saw, you might think differently.

Just because one doesn't want to die a useless horrible death on camera doesn't mean that one agrees with the Left or Hollywood or is a coward.

Our enemies in the Muslim world will die a mindless death because they have nothing much to live for. I believe our lives in our wonderful free society demands that we be a bit smarter with our lives.

A dead westerner has no more value a live one does.

Steve and Olaff were Fox news reporters not CBC jihads. These guys are not Muslim sympathizers they are men at work trying to deliver a more truthful reporting of what's going on in the middle east.

These men did the smart thing, they stayed alive to continue reporting more truthfully on event.

If they had hung tough and died, they would be forgotten in a day or two and what would they have died for?

We have developed superior technology and weaponry so that we need not sacrifice lives unnecessarily. The problem we have is that our leaders won't use our power against our enemy.

To fault the pawn in the field is wrong, we need to fault our leaders and bring pressure on them to use our great power to cripple and destroy the enemy's ability to wage war against us.

Mark Steyn and David Warren are taking the noble route in this matter, but we are not fighting a noble here ... this is much much different than any war we have ever been engaged and we much fight it much differently.

How complicated is that?

Posted by: Duke | 2006-09-03 11:16:00 AM


Zeb,

Sure we can!

Posted by: Duke | 2006-09-03 11:17:05 AM


Duke: Okay, fair enough.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2006-09-03 11:22:54 AM


http://tinyurl.com/okoe9

2 Videos, courtesy of Michelle Malkin

The first is of Azzam the American spewing his bile - apparently he condemns any land where anti-Semitism is an "unforgivable sin".

The second is what really comes from what he says - people falling out of the burning Twin Towers. Keep that in mind when thinking about what Azzam says.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2006-09-03 11:51:05 AM


Zeb,

In keeping with what you have just posted (thank you for that) here is something that further makes your point.

These are the words of the judge who sentenced Richard Reed the shoe bomber. This sums up what we are about and puts into perspective what our enemies are.

================================================

Now, let me explain this to you. We are not fraid of you or any of your terrorist co-conspirators, Mr. Reid. We are Americans. We have been through the fire before. There is too much war talk here and I say that to every-one with the utmost respect. Here in this court, we deal with individuals as individuals and care for individuals as individuals. As human beings, we reach out for justice.

You are not an enemy combatant. You are a terrorist. You are not a soldier in any war. You are a terrorist. To give you that reference,
to call you a soldier, gives you far too much stature. Whether the officers of government do it or your attorney does it, or if you think you are a soldier. You are not----- you are a terrorist. And we do not negotiate with terrorists. We do not meet with terrorists. We do not sign documents with terrorists. We hunt them down one by one and bring them to justice.

So war talk is way out of line in this court. You are a big fellow. But you are not that big. You're no warrior. I've known warriors. You are a terrorist. A species of criminal that is guilty of multiple attempted murders. In a very real sense, State Trooper Santiago had it right when you first were taken off that plane and into custody and you wondered where the press and the TV crews were, and he said:

"You're no big deal."

You are no big deal. What your able counsel and what the equally able United States attorneys have grappled with and what I have as honestly as I know how tried to grapple with, is why you did something so horrific. What was it that led you here to this courtroom today?

I have listened respectfully to what you have to say. And I ask you to search your heart and ask yourself what sort of unfathomable hate led you to do what you are guilty and admit you are guilty of doing? And, I have an answer for you. It may not satisfy you, but as I search this entire record, it comes as close to understanding as I know.

It seems to me you hate the one thing that to us is most precious. You hate our freedom. Our individual freedom. Our individual freedom to live as we choose, to come and go as we choose,
to believe or not believe as we individually choose. Here, in this society, the very wind carries freedom. It carries it everywhere from
sea to shining sea. It is because we prize individual freedom so much that you are here in this beautiful courtroom. So that everyone can
see, truly see, that justice is administered fairly, individually, and discretely. It is for freedom's sake that your lawyers are striving
so vigorously on your behalf, have filed appeals, will go on in their representation of you before other judges.

We Americans are all about freedom. Because we all know that the way we treat you, Mr. Reid, is the measure of our own liberties. Make no mistake though. It is yet true that we will bare any burden; pay any price, to preserve our freedoms. Look around this courtroom. Mark it well. The world is not going to long remember what you or I say here. The day after tomorrow, it will be forgotten, but this, however, will long endure.

Here in this courtroom and courtrooms all across America, the American people will gather to see that justice, individual justice, justice, not war, individual justice is in fact being done. The very President of the United States through his officers will have to come into courtrooms and lay out evidence on which specific matters can be judged and juries of citizens will gather to sit and judge that evidence democratically, to mold and shape and refine our sense of justice.

See that flag, Mr. Reid? That's the flag of the United States of America . That flag will fly there long after this is all forgotten. That flag stands for freedom. And it always will.

Mr. Custody Officer. Stand him down.

So, how much of this Judge's comments did we hear on our TV sets? We need more judges like Judge Young, but that's another subject.

Posted by: Duke | 2006-09-03 12:13:51 PM


Duke:

I've read that sentencing many times before and it always works. Judge Young threw the book at him - Reid is now in the ADX Prison in Florence, CO where he is in 23/7 solitary confinement...forever.

While it is always nice to see judges like that, we need more - MANY more - leaders like him. Bush seems to fit the bill, so does Blair, Howard and now Harper. Of course, Mayor Giuliani (God Bless Him). They might be criticized for being belligerent and having suspect motives, but I predict that history will judge them to have seen the threat and acted properly.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2006-09-03 12:22:01 PM


Thanks Duke....those comments should be broadcast all over the networks.

Posted by: anonymous | 2006-09-03 12:30:06 PM


Just proved to me what all religion is about. A joke, a fantasy for the not overly bright. a beating stick to oppress and control. I would have converted to micky mouseiasam if some fuckwit rabid muszzie, was holding a gun to my head. The jury is out, you are not going to find a muslim that is not a fucking whack job. It would be comical if they weren't so evil.

Posted by: Honey Pot | 2006-09-03 12:43:54 PM


Forced conversions are the NORM for Islam. How do you think the prophet Mohammed's crew grew from a rag tag group of desert raiders to a religion of supposedly 1.5 billion today?
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005823.htm

More forced conversion: The Janissaries
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/new2.html

Charles Taylor conquered Liberia with an army of kidnapped child soldiers. He forced them to convert to Islam and to kill.

Posted by: Speller | 2006-09-03 2:03:27 PM


As a Christian I would choose to die rather than deny my faith to stay alive. Many of us may have to face that choice some day, though I hope not too soon.

Posted by: Herman | 2006-09-03 2:40:11 PM


Herman,

You may be willing to go and play golf for all enternity with your imaginary friends in heaven, but I prefer to stick with the bird in the hand.

To quote Steve Marin "wouldn't you be embarrassed if you died and found out there was a god"

Christian values make sense and do work well to help a society remain sane and civil, but that evolved over a millenia ... We are still evolving as a species, but some of our species is lagging far behind. You know who!

If you don't believe in evolution, then how is it we have been to the moon when only a thousand years ago we didn't even know what to do the wheel other than tie a donkey to a cart to move the watermelons.

Posted by: Duke | 2006-09-03 2:51:42 PM


After 200 years there are STILL no transitional fossils discovered to demonstrate that evolution is a reasonable theory. The Piltdown Man, Peppered Moths, Feather Reptiles from China in the 1990s, all hoaxes that were greedily swallowed whole by the 'scientific' community because there are NO transitional species to demonstrate evolution. Why were they so desperate? Because they don't want to face the possibility that they will answer to a creator God.

Posted by: Speller | 2006-09-03 3:06:15 PM


I mean evolution from barbarians who ate raw meat to astronauts who go to the moon.

I don't expect a believer in creationism to buy into the Darwin version of evo.

Posted by: Duke | 2006-09-03 3:56:26 PM


Oh, I see Duke, yes our technology is evolving.

I have to say, though, that human society and culture is actually devolving.

Posted by: Speller | 2006-09-03 4:03:59 PM


Zeb, Islam perhaps does not call explicitly for forced conversion but it does so by slow strangulation as in the racist Dhimmi system....It is like a giant racketeering scam...tax the infidel as much as possible and give him impossible laws to live by and eventually you will pressure most to convert by Islam.....SO IN FACT, Islam does forcibly convert and has done so for 1400 years.....it just does it in a less direct way...

Granted, the practice of Muslims by and large does allow them to force people to convert...that has always been common practice if not explicitly laid out in the Quran or Sunnah!

Posted by: Albertanator | 2006-09-03 4:30:09 PM


Albertantor:

Yes I see your point. But can you blame these people whose religion says that theirs is superior to all others. That video I posted earlier said that God only recognizes Islam as His one true religion, and all other sacrements are null and void. Talk about arrogance!

If they would just embrace secularism, then there would be fewer problems. But instead Muslim countries use the Qu'ran to legitimize their political agendas, especially the destruction of the infidels occupying Palestine. Superstition, rather than reason, is used to do this. No wonder they see no problem with mass murder - it's all relative or the will of Allah.

Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2006-09-03 5:26:33 PM


I will have a difficult time watching Khaled Centanni (or is his last name changed now too ?). He played their little propaganda game...what a putz. At least he didn't have to say that he was a jew and his father was a jew before they cut his head off.

But on the bright side, at least now as a Muslim he should be able to do those hard news stories out of Mecca and Medina, huh ?

Posted by: MarkAlta | 2006-09-03 8:13:48 PM


Karolak, this isn't the place to address those concerns. You know it isn't. Take a step back and try to look at the larger picture.

Posted by: EBD | 2006-09-03 11:00:01 PM


It is interesting that once back to safety, these fellows did not complain about their forced conversion nor have they denounced it. No matter they provided the Muslims with the video publicity that they wanted and that they have aired on TV throughout the Muslim world. A bit of a prelude to Al-Qaeda's ultimatum to the West on 2 September to repent and convert to Islam before it is too late. In that light these journalists have a head-start on the rest of us, eh.

Posted by: Alain | 2006-09-04 1:08:12 AM


But the Islamofascists may be right. The West is weak. We are economically rich, technologically sophisticated, and militarily powerful but we lack conviction. Convictions that we are willing to sacrifice and die for anyway. Comfort makes cowards of us all. We fear the loss of our comfortable lifestyles and our security and are willing to compromise almost anything to keep them. When faced with real evil, and that is what militant Islam is, we fall immediately into the tried and futile dialogue and negotiation mode. Chamberlain did it with Hitler. Churchill criticized him for it but the British public at large were estatic. They feared confrontation and war more and were willing to bargain with the Devil to keep the peace. Self deception is a common response of the frightened. In the end trying to negotiate with those of ill will (who see negotiation as a sign of weakness and compromise as an opportunity to be exploited) only makes them feel more powerful and emboldens them. Hitler was emboldened by the British non-response to his expansionistic actions in Europe. Militant Islam is popularized and therefore strengthened by the perception throughout the Muslim world that it can successfully intimidate and humble the West.

Posted by: Lindsay | 2006-09-04 2:12:50 AM


There's a world in that post. That's great.

Posted by: EBD | 2006-09-04 2:28:21 AM



Jesus said:
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

Posted by: Herman | 2006-09-04 7:54:05 AM


Great post Lindsay,

As before WWII so it is today. The western people and their governments were sleeping the sleep of socialism then too. It was the Bolsheviks that lead the people of the West to name WWI 'The War to End All Wars' and so to starve their militaries afterward. The Bolsheviks which began their peace movement in Russia with the rallying cry of 'Bread and Peace' leading to the October Revolution have never let up. The Communists were why the West was so ill prepared for WWII. They have been behind every peace march and protest in the West since the armistice that November in 1919.

They are the fifth column in our midst that prevents us from gathering the spiritual and political will needed to use the weapons we have at hand.

"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
Vladimir Lenin

"Capitalists are no more capable of self-sacrifice than a man is capable of lifting himself up by his own bootstraps."
Vladimir Lenin

"The goal of socialism is communism."
Vladimir Lenin

"Democracy is indispensable to socialism."
Vladimir Lenin

"The press should be not only a collective propagandist and a collective agitator, but also a collective organizer of the masses."
Vladimir Lenin

"Crime is a product of social excess."
Vladimir Lenin


Posted by: Speller | 2006-09-04 9:01:45 AM


Lindsay hit the nail on the head. How true!

Posted by: Alain | 2006-09-04 11:32:37 AM


@Speller,

all these hoaxes were discovered in the end by.... Yep, scientists. So that doesn't really prove anything.

As for the missing link, this link may only have existed for a Generation or two before it got extinct and the odds for any sceletal remains still being around, much less found is incredible small.

If you want to see evolution in action I suggest you have a closer look at the fruitfly, over the past 50 years it has gone through enormous transofrmations as it started to migrate from Europe to South America and then up the coast as far north as Vancouver Island. The Genome is VERY well understood and there are several people following it's changes.

It has been very clearly how quickly the fruitfly managed to adapt to the chnages in climate and locale and how quickly undesired traits died off.

Posted by: Snowrunner | 2006-09-04 1:35:26 PM


Keep in mind that even a lot of Muslims aren't really converted to the cause. I was on a flight out of Jeddah. As soon as we got airborne, off went all the black robes and out came the party dresses. So, for the Muslim mind, the genuineness of the conversion may mean little or nothing -- what this act signifies is that Islam is on the march, and westerners give the impression of being ready to SUBMIT. It's really more of a Christian notion that one's faith must be from the heart, and internal, to be genuine.

Posted by: Richard Ball | 2006-09-04 2:00:08 PM


Snowrunner,

What missing link? Why the singular use of the word link? There isn't ANY fossil connection between ANY species and another. There are ZERO transitional fossils between ALL species.

"There are nearly 5,000 DESCRIBED species of tephritid fruit fly, categorized in almost 500 genera."
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tephritidae


"Drosophilidae (Order: Diptera) is a diverse, cosmopolitan family of flies, including the genus Drosophila, which includes fruit flies, vinegar flies, wine flies, pomace flies, grape flies, and picked fruit-flies. The best known species is Drosophila melanogaster that is used extensively for studies concerning genetics, development, physiology, ecology, behaviour, etc.

These flies may have several shades of color, including white eyes and black skin."
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drosophilidae

You are trying to tell me that wild flys have been observed to MUTATE over a 50 year period in nature?

You can't be serious. I don't suppose that the non-laboratory conditions give you a moments pause in your dogmatic faith in the idea of it.

Who, if they are even observing the SAME group of fruit flies they started observing in Eupore migrating over such a vast area, has proved they have mutated and not simply breeded differently from the same unchanged DNA as the many breeds of dogs or horses have while still maintaining the same species DNA?

What proof have they that these flies, even if they are observing the offspring of the original European study group which is extremely doubtful, have turned into another animal altogether or that they ever will?

Evolution isn't a small green fruit fly with white eyes breeding into a larger brown fruit fly with black eyes. Evolution claims an earth worm evolved in an elephant.

check this out for those who think fruit flies have something to say:
http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/10mut10.htm

EXCERPTS:
"It is a striking, but not much mentioned fact that, though geneticists have been breeding fruit flies for sixty years or more in labs all round the world—flies which produce a new generation every eleven days—they have never yet seen the emergence of a new species or even a new enzyme."—*Gordon R. Taylor, The Great Evolution Mystery (1983), p. 48.

SUMMARY
Once a fruit fly, always a fruit fly.

The following news article sums it all up. Notice the fact that, in those instances in which damaged fruit flies survive long enough, they change back into regular fruit flies—even those without eyes!

"For 80 years scientists have been experimenting with the lowly fruit fly (Drosophila), trying to prove that all life on planet earth is the result of a series of `good accidents.'

"Evolutionists, through a marvelous leap of faith, believe that the almost endless variety and complexity of plants and animals `evolved' from an ancient pool of `primordial soup.'

"How do they believe this is possible? By millions and billions of accidents. For example, an early fish might accidentally grow a new kind of fin which helped him swim faster and escape his enemies. Then his fins might accidentally turn to legs he could use to walk on land, and so on.

"All this is based on a faith by the evolutionists that somehow, somewhere a gene changed to give this higher life form. It has to be faith, because there is yet no evidence that when genes have accidents (called mutations), that is for the better.

"The evidence is overwhelming that such accidents either make the gene worse or, at best, no better than the original.

"After all, how often do you see a car run faster and more smoothly after a head-on collision?

"Well, back to fruit flies. Because fruit flies reproduce many generations in a very short time, scientists picked them for the experiment hoping to compress thousands of years of `evolution' into a few years of lab work.

"After 80 years and millions of generations of fruit flies subjected to X rays and chemicals which cause mutations, all they have been able to produce are more of the same: fruit flies.

"And—more importantly—they have all been no better or stronger, and many have been weaker. All the changes eventually reached limits that, when approached, the strains of the fruit flies grew progressively weaker and died.

"And when the mutated strains were allowed to breed for several generations, they gradually changed back to the original form.

"One experiment produced fruit flies without eyes. Yet, after a few life cycles, flies with eyes began to appear. Some kind of genetic repair mechanism took over and blocked any possibility of evolution.

"God was very careful in Genesis to state that each of the animals were created `after his kind.' After 80 years and millions of generations, God was proven right: A fruit fly will always be a fruit fly."—"Evolutionists Still Looking for a `Good Accident,' " Battle Cry, July-August, 1990.

Posted by: Speller | 2006-09-04 2:17:21 PM


Plus, in an Islamic state you can be imprisoned or maybe even beheaded for speaking against "the Prophet". So, I doubt that many Muslims in the ME will see the fine point between a voluntary vs. involuntary conversion. One of the biggest mistakes we make with regards to the ME (Iraq/Saddam Hussein is a good example) is assuming that these people think the same way that we do.

Posted by: Richard Ball | 2006-09-04 2:34:10 PM


just a quick comment that I was watching the Michael Coren show on tv the other day as I usually do; and they were talking about these forced conversions etc.. Michael while understanding and not necessarily judging the fox reporters, he did state the case of a gentleman from Italy who was kidnapped and was going to be videotaped dieing if he didn't agree to there demands. His reply was"I will show you how an Italian dies". He died willingly for his western beliefs. Now theres a real man.

Posted by: john a | 2006-09-04 7:40:37 PM


It would seem from some comments that all religions are the same. I am glad to have learned something at my old age. It would explain why the little old ladies at my anglican church had a muslim man tied up in the basment corner while having there weekly tea and planning the next roast beef dinner. The christian bastards were trying to force his conversion.

Posted by: john a | 2006-09-04 8:06:30 PM


What was the Italian's name? Does anyone remember?

John M Reynolds

Posted by: jmrSudbury | 2006-09-05 10:07:05 AM


jmr,

Fabrizio Quattrocchi.

Posted by: Kathryn | 2006-09-05 10:45:24 AM


Why did the terrorists bother to make the video?

Why did they bother to make the tape of the interview and murder of Daniel Pearl?

Who are they trying to intimidate the most?

Who was effected the most?

You must first, know their plan.

Plan 1: Come in peace, and do simple education for conversion.

Plan 2: If Plan 1 fails to islamize the location, bully people into conversion.

Plan 3: Control the media, through acts of violence, bully, threats and more.

Plan 4: If 1,2, and 3 fail to convert location to islamism, begin terrorism. Start with the jews. People will naturally blame the Jewsw first, as they always have, for bringing on the violence.

Then, when Jews have been blamed, start on everyone else. Everyone else will not want to say anything, because they will fear being labelled like the Jews have been labelled. And everyone laughs with the bully, so long as it means they are not bullied themselves.

Plan 5: If that fails to islamize the location, begin acts of terrorism. Acts of terrorism include any and all methods as necessary, including showing videos of individuals being forced to convert, as role models. No one will want to be in the possition, and yet the role modelling is what it is, and will help the people convert!

Worked in Egypt!

Worked in just about every other location in Northern Africa, depending on the technology at the time!

Folks either fight, or leave. If those bullied leave, then there are few individuals in that location to convert. Eventually, there is no one there to convert, and everyone there to bully, torture, and force deeper submission onto!

The ultimate intent of the islamofacists, is to force cowing onto others. They make the video, like a trophy, to show their own what they are capable of, as well. Their intent is to do the gross acts of violence, to force everyone to cow to them!

Fear, after all, is the beginning of respect! Whoever heard of anyone not having some fear of someone they respected? Even fear of loosing that person?

Meanwhile, fear tactics of all kinds, are considered immoral in the west. And that opinion, is of no consequence, in view of the terrorists, who view themselves as above all, incvluding their own.

If they get fear, then they have acheived, in their minds, a deed of victory for their religion!

That is why they do that.

And they will blame every single westerner, for not having the guts and ability to stop them!

They then get off on the power, like a drug.

It, in their religion, is sexual.

The worse they do, the more they challenge, the closer they are of becoming shahids, and the closer they are to marrying 72 virgins in heaven. They can live in their lust and sexual fantasy, and that sustains them. They can brag to eachother, about how close they are, to their virgins, and each one will pat the other on the back, and socially reward the other, and economically reward their families, for their deeds.

That is why they do that!

Posted by: Lady | 2006-09-05 10:48:08 AM


Fear is a two edged sword. It swings one way and they will cow the people who were not spiritually prepared for the sword, it swings the other way and instead of a cow they get a LION who is motivated by that same fear to rend them from the diapers on their butts to the diapers on their heads.

Posted by: Speller | 2006-09-05 10:56:54 AM


That is why I dilike the NDP, Speller. They play the game where all that is required, is that legally, every single person is rendered as weak as possible. And yet those people, who swing the sword as the LION, will never be cowed by laws, as they only adhere to their own version of the laws, which does not inlcude Canadian Laws. What that means, is that since terrorism cannot be seen in advance, as there is no advancing Army, that unless individuals do what is necessary to protect themselves and eachother, we are all left defenceless in the face of an advancing threat, they will simply never go into remission!!

And that is also why I dislike the Liberals, Speller.

Because they would pretend to be neutral to us, in the face of an advancing threat, as if being neutral, and seeking out some kind of compromise, will mean the threat will simply go away. While the Liberals were in power, it was a struggle to get out and out terrorist groups outlawed. And even after the fact, they pretended and still pretend, to have an in whereby they can maintain a neutral position, while me and mine, get terrorized and murdered!

And I am glad I don't know Jack, and have never met Bill, as those two, are like humpty and numpty! They would cause us all to fall!

Humpty and Numpty,
Sat on the wall,
Humpty and Numpty,
Had a great fall,
All the Queens money,
and all the Queens power,
Could not save Humpty and Numpty again!

Why?

Because once the sword has gone through the neck, there is no going back!

Posted by: Lady | 2006-09-05 11:55:12 AM


I have been reading the Qur'an, and I realize that as a skeptic who loves the gift of laughter, I would be singled out for persecution under Islamic domination. That being said, I would much sooner 'convert' and seek to corrupt the religion than just be killed.

Sorry, but I'm not going to be martyred just to seem brave. I'd rather have the courage to live than the recklessness to die.

PS. The (OT) discussion of evolution is painful for somebody who is familiar with the limited scope of creationist rhetoric. Speller, you say things like: "There are ZERO transitional fossils between ALL species.", do not expect me to take you seriously when you claim to speak for the ultimate truth.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very grateful for Christianity. But I also take as one of it's gift that respect for truth is one of the highest values. Creationism does not have intellectual honesty amongst it's virtues.

Posted by: Tim | 2006-09-05 4:56:43 PM


My life's been basically bland recently. I can't be bothered with anything recently. Pretty much nothing seems important. I've basically been doing nothing worth mentioning.

Posted by: blue book home kelly manufactured | 2007-08-12 1:07:40 PM


I've basically been doing nothing to speak of. Basically nothing seems worth thinking about. I feel like a void, but that's how it is. I've just been hanging out doing nothing.

Posted by: 1939 europe map | 2007-08-29 1:59:35 AM



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