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Monday, July 17, 2006

Compare and Contrast

Sane reaction to Middle East crisis:

Bush told Blair: "See the irony is what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this s___ and it's over."
***
"What about Kofi Annan?" Bush asked Blair. "I don't like the sequence of it. His attitude is basically cease-fire and everything else happens."
***
Bush said that he feels "like telling Kofi to get on the phone with [Syrian President Bashar] Assad and make something happen. We're not blaming Israel, and we're not blaming the Lebanese government."

Insane reaction to Middle East crisis:

Is it time to get excited? I can't help the way I feel. For the first time in my Christian walk, I have no doubts that the day of the Lords appearing is upon us. I have never felt this way before, I have a joy that bubbles up every-time I think of him, for I know this is truly the time I have waited for so long. Am I alone in feeling guilty about the human suffering like my joy at his appearing somehow fuels the evil I see everywhere. If it were not for the souls that hang in the balance and the horror that stalks man daily on this earth, my joy would be complete. For those of us who await his arrival know, somehow we just know it won't be long now, the Bridegroom cometh rather man is ready are not.

(From Rapture Ready, via Andrew Sullivan.)
And here I thought war was a bad thing. But apparently it means Jesus is coming back. I'm just glad it isn't me who gets to explain that to Israeli and Lebanese civilians.

Cross-posted at Wonkitties.

Posted by wonkitties on July 17, 2006 in International Affairs | Permalink

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Comments

The "insane" bit seems familiar. Does Remi Houle write for RaptureReady?

Posted by: Voice of Reason | 2006-07-17 10:43:57 AM


This man is a fool. First of all I'd like to note that this man does not speak for Christians. True Christians await the rapture but do not do nothing but wait for it. We still have lives to lead. Although I disagree with the statements of this man, I also disagree with it being posted here as it promotes hatred and misunderstanding. I think a footnote should be added stating that this man isn't the least bit representative of real Christian views.

Posted by: Andrew | 2006-07-17 11:05:57 AM


Question: Wonkitties, what point are you trying to make through this post? Feel free to answer.

Posted by: Andrew | 2006-07-17 11:07:14 AM


There are nuts in every group. No need to get your knickers in a knot about it...

Posted by: Warwick | 2006-07-17 11:29:06 AM


Why juxtapose a crisis discussion between two elected and allied world leaders in comparison with comments by an individual who is evidently sort of praying out loud in some sort of a semi-private forum?

All Wonkitties demonstrates is lack of empathy for a profoundly valid philosophy, albeit, one individual's interpretation of that religious philosophy.

There are many actions on display these days which can accurately be termed insane, but an individual grappling with frightening world events by means of placing them into a biblical and Christian perspective, certainly isn't among them.

Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2006-07-17 12:08:35 PM


I'll have to agree with you on that one Conrad. I checked out that website and it is nothing but a forum. It is not some sort of official announcement on behalf of some group. Going into a forum and pulling out a random comment is not journalism. Anybody can write anything in there so it may not even be a serious comment and if it is it is only the personal views of one person. I agree that current world events do point to endtimes but I am not quite so zealous about it. Still just the same it is not nice to mock people when they aren't hurting anybody with their views.

Posted by: Andrew | 2006-07-17 12:29:54 PM


My vote goes with Conrad and Andrew on this one. This person's views and beliefs are just that and pose no security threat or danger to anyone, so leave him or her be please.

Posted by: Alain | 2006-07-17 1:13:27 PM


I love the Word of God. It is our lamp in this world of darkness.

2 Peter 8,9
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Is it not nice to think that this world of madness will eventually come to an end, an the end will be the beginning of a world of love and grace for Christians? Come on muslims, quit your father the devil and come to Christ!

Posted by: Rémi Houle | 2006-07-17 1:28:51 PM


Wonkitties seems to use this site as
some sort of dumping ground for whatever inane posts she puts up at her own site. I doubt she even reads the comments. When she says "shameless self-promotion" she's not kidding.

Posted by: nazz rune | 2006-07-17 3:43:30 PM


I think Rondi has something to say and says it well more times than not.Nobody's batting average is flawless so perhaps some of the naysayers should put up their own sites and put forth the energy to steadily maintain a flawless flow of political prose.
I promise to read it and be as critical as I can.

Posted by: in ques t | 2006-07-17 4:47:14 PM


The joy consists in knowing that even in the dark periods of human history there is a divine plan that will bring an end to that misery. The 21st century mind is conditioned to think that what hurts right now cannot possibly have any good associated with it. God's plan is not 'nice', it is sometimes harsh, but it is oh so Good.

Posted by: TJ | 2006-07-17 5:12:11 PM


only the muslim army general spoke to god

who told him what laws to impose

like circumcising muslim women so they should have no pleasure when the sons of allah impregnate them 15 times or more each in their lifetime

----------------------------

27/01/2001


Victims tell harrowing tales of forced circumcision in the growing holy war in Indonesia's Maluku islands. Lindsay Murdoch reports.

In December, Christina Sagat and other Christians from her village on the island of Kesui, part of the Indonesian Maluku group, were forced to convert to Islam. The conversion included forced circumcision, a mutilation inflicted on hundreds in the isolated island group by extremists of a jihad (holy war) movement.

She shakes with fear but is determined not to cry as she tells her story. Her wounds have healed but this 32-year-old woman is left with the deep pain of unresolved sorrow and humiliation. There is also the pain of betrayal - how could her neighbours, with whom she had lived in harmony, turn on her and lead her to a cruel ordeal?

"I feel sad, I feel like I'm no longer 'complete', both as a person and a woman," she said, speaking amid the ruins of Ambon City, the epicentre of the Maluku tragedy.

This is her story.

I was born and raised in Karlomin, a Catholic village in Kesui island. The island itself is actually dominated by Muslims. Kesui is a very beautiful place, it has a white sandy beach. I lived with my parents and seven brothers and sisters, in-laws, nieces and nephews. I used to help my parents take care of our small plantations.

Catholics, Protestants and Muslims used to live peacefully before those local followers of jihad came to the island. In the past, we could hang out and visit friends and families from different religions. If, for example, the Christians were constructing a new church, the Muslims would automatically help, and vice versa.

At first, we did not believe it when we heard about the bloody conflict in Ambon and rumours that the Muslims would attack Christian villages in Kesui. We said it was impossible that our own friends and neighbours would attack us.

As the situation in Ambon got worse, religious and customary leaders in Kesui met and agreed to stay away from the conflict. About late October, people from nearby islands who had joined the jihad visited Muslim villages often. But the Christians at that time did not see that as a problem.

We realised the visits of jihad people were the likely seed of the disaster in the island when my uncle was attacked by Muslim youths in the neighbouring Muslim village. My uncle, as usual, went to buy cigarette papers in that village. But on his way out of the village the mob surrounded him and attacked him. He suffered severe spear and machete wounds all over his body. He was bleeding but managed to get back to our village. But still (before he died) he told us not to take revenge. So we buried him and did exactly what he asked us.

But on the next day, another Christian youth was attacked. We heard that the attacker went back to his Muslim village and told his friends that the Christians were ready to attack them.

After the second murder, some of the Christians started to believe the rumours about the possible war between Muslims and Christians on the island and fled to the mountains or nearby islands.

But many others, including my family, stayed behind. My father was one of the village's cultural leaders so he had to stay to protect the village. In the third week of November, we eventually decided to flee after learning that Muslim mobs were marching toward our village. We packed some clothes, food and valuables and rushed to the mountains.

We were very scared. We regretted the fact that we had not made the decision to save our lives earlier.

There were about 260 people from my village who stayed on the mountain. But, on the fourth day ... some of our Muslim neighbours found us and told us to follow their religion for our own sake. They said they could not protect us from the jihad people if we were not Muslims.

It's very hard to us, but we finally decided to follow the Muslims to their village and do whatever they told us to do in order to save our lives. We're fully aware that refusing to do so would only get us all killed.

The Muslim representatives told us to go straight to a mosque in Kampung Baru village so that when the jihad arrived they would think that we had already become Muslims. When we reached the village, the crowd of people and local jihad followers were already waiting for us; they made a barricade along the path to the mosque. I felt like we were just a group of hopeless sheep being led to a slaughterhouse.

There we realised that all that the Muslim representatives had told us was completely lies. They had cheated us. They acted as if they cared about our lives, but the truth was they only wanted us to convert to Islam, nothing more.

When we all entered the mosque, the habib (Islamic preacher) asked us whether we really wanted to be Muslims. I felt miserable. The habib then told us to say the Al Fatiha prayer (chanted when a person adopts Islam) three times. I did not remember any of the words at all because I did not say it. I just opened my mouth but in my heart I said my own Catholic
prayers.

The Muslim crowd inside and outside the mosque yelled and waved their machetes, spears. We all cried. I felt mixed up, scared. I told my mum, who sat beside me, "Why do we have to go through all of of this? It is not a self- willing act, it's coercion. I can't do this. But what else can I do. We would only be killed if we refused it, wouldn't we?"

Meanwhile, the crowd in the mosque searched our bags, they took out the Bibles, Rosary necklaces and small statues of Mary, which were torn and broken to pieces and burnt outside the mosque.

Some of the Muslims shed tears. But I'm sure that's tears of joy because they could finally make us convert to Islam. Some of the people said "Why on earth did you not follow us earlier?"

We, especially the men, were told to perform Muslim prayers at the mosque. But I tried to avoid it. I didn't want to do that, did not know the prayers and did not give a damn.

The Muslims did not stop their acts there; they continued with the forced circumcisions. All of us, men and women, old and young, even infants and pregnant women, were circumcised under threat. At least 100 females were circumcised.

The team went to the houses where we stayed in turn. They came to the house where I stayed on December 4. I asked the Muslim family about who would perform it, whether I would be given anaesthetic, etc. They told me female priests would do the circumcision using a kitchen knife and no anaesthetic was necessary. I said to myself, "What? What kind of circumcision is this? How come they do not bother about the sanitary and health factors of it?"

So I tried to avoid them. I pretended not to hear them calling my name. I stayed in my room. I was very, very scared. My body's shaking. I could imagine myself being circumcised. But I realised there was nothing I could do to stop them from doing it because they would certainly kill me and my family if I refused.

So I reluctantly came out of my room and entered another room. They told me to undress and sit on a chair which was covered with white cloth. "Open your legs," they said. I saw under the chair a coconut shell filled with water and a kitchen knife. I said. "Oh My God, what would happen to me?" I
was so scared, upset too. But I did not dare to resist them, I didn't want to be killed.

At first the woman soaked her fingers in the water and then inserted them into my vagina as she looked for the clitoris. After she found it, she pulled it out, took out the kitchen knife and cut it. That hurt very much. I shed tears. They left just like that without giving me any medication.

I was lucky, I had some money and went to the store immediately to get antibiotics. I know the men suffered more than us women. The circumcision hurt them more that it did to us because their scars could not heal fast. Several of the men I knew got serious infections after suffering from
severe bleeding.

My scar healed quite fast, but the sad, humiliated feeling stayed until today.

My niece, Cecilia, who at that time was eight months pregnant, was also circumcised. How could they do that to her? I heard she cried. But she did not talk about it a lot, maybe she just wanted to bury it. My mother, who is in her 70s, was also circumcised.

Teenagers and even infants were also circumcised. Children were told to soak themselves in the salt water, on the beach, to help healing their scars.

I don't understand these people. I don't think the original Ambon Muslim female adults were circumcised. But they insisted we be circumcised.

(On December 15, a ship arrived under government supervision to take Christians to the relative safety of Ambon, a move resisted by jihad leaders.)

I did not want to miss the chance, so I came over to the houses where my mother and father stayed and asked them to go to the beach to board the ship. But when we got to the beach, we saw most of the people who had boarded the ship had returned to the beach.

Then I learnt that jihad leaders were protesting at the way the government team did its job. I guess they just did not want us to leave the island and return to our original religion.

We were scared because it was obvious that the government team was helpless. I decided then to get off the island. I told my mum I would leave. I said, "Mother, if I could board that ship, I would not go down here again." My mum was very sad, "You're leaving, don't you love me any more?" I told her: "I will go, but I will find a way to get you and Dad out of the island."

The ship left with only 41 people, including me. There were about 100 people, including my brothers and their families and some Christian leaders, who had boarded the ship but then returned to the beach under the Muslims' threat. The Muslims told them that their families who were still on the island would surely be killed if they left.

We arrived in Ambon at night after almost three days on the ship.

I now stay at the refugee camp.

Posted by: woodbridge | 2006-07-17 5:45:10 PM


Darkness always surrounds us, whether we choose to see it or not.

It is difficult to resist the temptations, but not impossible.

Posted by: Set you free | 2006-07-17 5:46:52 PM


Well, Rondi, most Christians believe in the eventual second-coming of Christ. In your opinion, are Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians, Protestants and Evangelicals all insane? What about Jews? They're still waiting for their messiah? Are they insane too?

Were you too busy shopping for shoes to think this one through?

Posted by: Howard Roark | 2006-07-17 6:44:40 PM


In his book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades), Robert Spencer outlined the three-step approach of Islamic expansionism.

Step 1 is an invitation to compare and study.

If a person has not accepted by Step 3, death by the sword is a definite possibility.

Right now, I am in correspondence with a person who calls themselves Muslim woman. I don't know if she's a woman, but since I will never accept their provably murderous philosophy, do not be surprised by my mysterious death.

And remember, as an kafir (unbeliever or non-Muslim) you are classified as No. 8 in a list of 10 unclean things which includes feces, urine, dead bodies, alcoholic liquors, dogs and pigs.

This list was not some ancient text ... this was a list made by Iraqi Shi'ite leader Grand Aykatollah Sayyid Ali Husyayni Sistani ... I'm sure you've heard his name in the news.

Posted by: Set you free | 2006-07-17 6:57:01 PM


Set you free -

We need you here a lot more than phony "Muslim woman" is ever going to "benefit" from your investment in "casting your pearls beneath the feet of swine" (to use the vernacular). Tell her to "Sod off, you tosser!"

Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2006-07-17 8:47:59 PM


Look, SOME Christians believe this kind of eschatology (study of end times) they are called Pre millenialists. They do not hold the the "CHRISTIAN" perspective on this matter. Christians should remember to be ready all the time of our Lords return. The Bible uses the word Israel in 2 different types, spiritual and national. Paul says there is no difference between Greek or Gentile or JEW for we are ALL ONE IN CHRIST. There is no special treatment for Jews for in saying so you have made them a special people and have split up the body of Christ. People said that Christ was going to return when Hitler killed all the jews, and many other times in History. The Bible says that the Lord will come as a thief in the night. In other words we will not know when He will return. Just be ready all the time.

Posted by: Dave | 2006-07-18 8:54:14 AM


I am a premillenial dispensationalist, Dave. Want to go toe to toe?

I understand premillenialism, amillienialism, and post milleniaism.

I bet you don't understand the premillenial position at all.

Sure there have been premillenialists in the past who thought they were in the 'End Times', and their premillenial beliefs helped them endure persecution and torture at the hands of the Roman Catholic church.

The Dominicans and Jesuits murdered them by the millions. As a matter of fact, from where I stand, the behaviour of the Vatican's minions has historically been indistinguishable from Mohammed's minions.

Posted by: Speller | 2006-07-18 9:41:25 AM


Speller:

Huh?

Here's one big difference. The Mohammedan text, specifically Sura 9:5 specifically instructs Moslems to be the Swords of God. BTW, Hezbollah literally means Army of god.

Sura 9:5 also says that particular verse superceded all previous verses. Those verses were the ones apologists point out as beautiful, poetic and lyrical.

It seems the older Mohammed got, the more bitter he got that people were laughing at his folly ... much of my private discussions are based on misunderstandings and misrepresentations of what the Christian texts say.

It's kind of like the religious version of the NDP, full of half-baked, incomplete concepts and shallow misunderstandings.

Study it a bit more and the Muslim version of peace on earth can happen only when the entire human population is either subjugated or slaughtered. Therefore, it is nothing more than a blueprint for totalitarian domination of the world.

As I pointed out in my last post kafir (that's being interpreted as unbelieves who refuse to submit to the will of those who hold the Sword of God) are considered to be on the same level as feces and urine.

Now, it's your turn Speller to prove the moral equivalent position you've just articulated.

Please point out any equivalent texts in the Bible or in the canons of the church which advocate slaughter of innocents who do not hold the same beliefs.

It's a central part of the Muslim religion and those who do not practise it are not true Muslims.

Christianity seeks the unlock the spriritual side of man, Islam celebrates the brutal side of man.

Posted by: Set you free | 2006-07-18 10:04:21 AM


Set you free,

I didn't claim moral equivalence between the Bible and Koran/Hadith or even real Christians and Muslims.

I claimed historic BEHAVIORAL equivalence between the Vatican's minions and Mohammed's minions.

From my comment above:
"the BEHAVIOR of the Vatican's minions has historically been INDISTIGUISHABLE from Mohammed's minions."
Posted by: Speller | Jul 18, 2006 9:41:25 AM

Now be a good little catholic and joust at some other strawman. Or maybe take a reading comprehension course.

Posted by: Speller | 2006-07-18 10:24:13 AM


Speller:

No. 1: I'm not Catholic.

My point is that Mohammedans are compelled to behave in the aggressive way they do in pursuit of making the world safe for Muslims.

By the Vatican's minions, I assume you may be speaking of the Spanish Inquisition, which I would agree is definitely not action taken either on Biblical spirit or word.

In ancient Christian though, there is no forcing of people to accept the religion ... only a invitation to understand. Now, humans cloaking themselves in the legitimacy of religion while pursuing other nefarious purposes is nothing new.

The universal truths are not responsible for the behaviour of the Vatican's minions ... those are the responsibilities of the individuals and their leadership who twisted the message for their political purposes.

The Crusades, on the other hand, were a legitimate action taken after five centuries of a military expansionist philosophy which had overrun former Christian lands.

There is a sublety whose difference, I'm just guessing, is being blinded by a misunderstanding.

Posted by: Set you free | 2006-07-18 11:09:12 AM


Set you free,

There were many inquisitions of which the Spanish version was only one example. Not to be forgotten, the Spanish Armada, was a planned Catholic invasion of England. If I had been ruling England at the time, I would have invaded Spain and smashed it immediately after they lost their Armada and all it's invasion troops.

There were many crusades, a number of them were not in the Middle East, but were directed at European Christians.

I have been studying Middle Eastern history, Islam, and many related topics since 9/11.

I have studied the history of the Vatican's predations since 1982.

If you are not a catholic, I suggest you stop supporting them. They have a very bloody, predatory, and indefensible history.

Posted by: Speller | 2006-07-18 11:26:34 AM


One more thing, Set you free,

If you've ever wondered why Spain has been such a poor country for so long, even though they received shipload after shipload of gold, silver, and jewels from the New World, the answer is that those shiploads went directly to Rome to pay off the loans Spain got to finance their wars of aggression against the Protestants.

Posted by: Speller | 2006-07-18 11:56:48 AM


Speller:

Thanks for the enlightenment.

I completely understand the Catholic Church departed from original ancient Christian practise and set off on their own, mostly ignoring their other four sister churches of equal stature in the MIdde East.

After ignoring them for centuries of Mohammedan aggressions, they finally did set off on the Crusades. But, it did not take long for the Crusaders to sack other Christian centres.

Like you, I have taken a greater interest in the Muslim world since 9/11.

As for knowing about the actions of the Catholic Church, I've know about them since childhood.

Posted by: Set you free | 2006-07-18 12:36:39 PM


Speller,

Spain is poor because it was run by the Hapsburgs. This is the same group of inbred freaks who ran the Austro-Hungarian Empire (ex-Holy Roman Empire) which talked the Keiser into starting WWI.

The Spanish and Austro-Hungarian wings of the families intermarried between the two halves of the family almost exclusively for many centuries (their family tree being a straight line...)

Aside from the Spanish Hapsburg's expulsion of the Moors, I can't think of anything they contributed to humanity except some patronage of the arts and a lot of wars (both imperial as well as religious.)

Posted by: Warwick | 2006-07-18 1:00:57 PM


Woodbridge,

Your post was absolutely horrifying. And the truth about the matter needs to be told, and retold over and over again.

And, they seem to have this problem with Tsunamis.

If it happens once in a while, well, that is just the way it is, but is it not ironic that in the wave (no pun intended) of protests against Israel, that they should get yet another Tsunami?

My personal belief is that when people violate women, they violate their own core beings.

When they violate their core beings, they perform a violation against the almighty.

The almighty created us with free will.

When free will is violated, then that core being, that which no one can create themselves, has been destroyed.

The response by the almighty may be slow, but it is no coincidence that those violations will never ever be forgotten.

Posted by: Lady | 2006-07-18 1:39:24 PM


Speller -

You always impress me with your energy and intellectual curiosity. I recognize that you loathe all things Catholic, but you might enjoy and appreciate a resource which I find to be valid and helpful. It is a magazine (5 issues per year) entitled: "The Latin Mass."

Ask them to send you a free sample issue. All of the writers provide legitimate insight into traditional Roman Catholic beliefs and philosophy and history.

You would find Dr. Diane Moczar to be particularly enjoyable as she specializes in Medieval History from the Roman Catholic (i.e. correct) perspective. ; - )

Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2006-07-18 3:00:23 PM


Speller, if you've picked up on the little hints that Set your free gives he/she is Eastern Orthodox and not Catholic. Conrad, I've read some of that woman's work and she's nothing but a revisionist. Some of that magazines arguments for things such as infant baptism are just ridiculous semantics and provide very few answers. Overall, I was disappointed with it. I don't care for the Catholic Church but I can't say that I hate it because I'm not a protestant. I'm a Landmark Baptist as in one who interprets that Baptist doctrine was passed down through the years and began at the time of John the Baptist and simply did not exist in name until the early 17th Century in England.

Posted by: Andrew | 2006-07-18 8:30:29 PM


Andrew, I'm with you. Baptist, mostly.

I don't hate catholics, but the thorn in my side is that I don't love them either.

Posted by: Speller | 2006-07-18 9:14:53 PM


Organised religion was devised is still today used as a (very effective) way to control masses of people who would otherwise do their own thing, and make the best of the one life they have, rather than chanting so-called holy prayers and willingly killing themselves and others in the belief that they are destined to either go up to some kind of heavens (forget that the advent of the telescope kind of ruled that one out) or some subterranean fire pit full of the souls of the damned or whatever. If some people need to believe in some kind of afterlife/higher-purpose to sleep at night, so be it, but never lessen the value of life on earth as we experience it. If their was a god and such a concept as sinning, the number 1, top-dog, mother of all vile sins would be to kill in the name of or die for your religion. At this moment in time, Islam is the number 1 sinner. Don't forget though, it has simply taken top spot from the Roman Catholic church, who took it from their predecessors.

Posted by: Big Makk | 2006-07-18 9:39:28 PM


By the bye, Andrew the only difference between Roman Catholic error and 'Orthodox' error is their political leadership, which they call a schism.

For all spiritual and biblical purposes they are identical in their paganism. They are Mary worshippers, prostrating themselves before idols and Terraphim, and continue the Babylonian religion under a veneer of Christian nomenclature.

The Holy Bible is a mere prop to their cults, they have no idea what it contains, and their religions only wanly wave in it's general direction to obtain a false legitimacy.

The scriptures of the Holy Bible will always come a distant second to their religious 'Traditions' which are utterly pagan.

Conrad, I would no sooner take a catholics view of the crusades or inquisitions than a Jew would take a Catholic Nazis' view of the Holocaust.

Posted by: Speller | 2006-07-18 9:45:21 PM


Speller -

A couple small points (huge, if one actually seeks to understand the other guy); the Roman Catholics draw a distinction between "worship" (that which is accorded to God, a Trinity of three persons or personalities, Father, Son and Holy Spirit) versus the concept of "veneration" or respect, which is accorded to exceptionally holy actual historic persons such as Mary and Joseph, and myriad others. This is a source of confusion and probably also an attempted calumny by non-Catholic advocates of other religious sects to enhance divisions between Roman Catholics and others who pursue a Christian philosophy.

Secondly, the use of visual art, music-songs-Gregorian chant, formal prayers are all historic and effective means to teach the Truth of Christianity with all of its historic links and derivation from Judaism and from The Beginning.

The Roman Catholics (like me) take an element of pride in the fact of early "fathers" assembling the Holy Bible and preserving it (Sacred Scripture as we term it) rigourously intact for all the centuries from the time of Christ (and subsequently, when the New Testiment was written).

The devotion to "sacred tradition" has the implicit recognition that a divinely inspired book is not greater than the events and the people described in that book. Catholics throughout the ages find and use and develop many resources to communicate the Truth, which is the essential message of Christ achieving salvation for all of human kind.

The administrative hierarchical structure of ordained clergy is consistent with Christ's designation of Peter as the Rock upon which Christ would build His Church, and the gates of Hell shall not PREVAIL against it. This does not mean that the Church will not be challenged and damaged (often). The mechanism which we human beings within the Catholic Church use to identify that which is True among all the many many voices and ideas within the Church, is that which we call Dogma, which in addition to the direct teachings of Christ and the Holy Bible, includes doctrines which the pope proclaims in the specific and very limited forum known as "speaking ex-Cathedra" (i.e. from the chair of Peter). NOTHING "new" of this type has been proclaimed during any of our lifetimes, e.g. meaning that NOTHING said or done by any of the last five popes has any doctrinal or dogmatic impact on Catholicism (e.g. pope John Paul II "the great" standing in Assissi, Italy on stage with snake charmer-types, and similar sacrilegious atrocities which have so damaged the Church in its mission of teaching and preserving the natural human family). But again, the gates of Hell have not prevailed...

The Catholic Church informs all of my opinions about events and conditions present in the world. Without it I doubt that I'd have anything of the life that I live (i.e. family). As you've observed and noted, I'm not very smart, of my own devices.

Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2006-07-19 9:31:34 AM


Speller:

Your ignorance is showing.

Let me make one minor point.

The Bible, which you purport to be the only authority, was complied by the early church through great debate.

Think about this: Without church councils to establish which books would be accepted and which would not be in included in the Bible, there would be no Bible.

Even during apostolic times (Mat 24:24) there were those who wanted to add or embelish or start their own Churches and understandings.

Which texts were constituted at Holly Scrpiture (the Bible) used two criteria.

1) who wrote the book and how certain it was that the alleged authorship was valid.

2) Whether or not the teachings of the book agreed with apostolic tradition (also called Holy Tradition).

It would be very easy to point out passages which say just the written word is not enough.

Here's a couple.

1) My friends, that's why you must remain faithful and follow closely what we taught you in person and by our letters (II Thess. 2:15).

2) I a m proud of you, because you always remember and obey the teachings I give you (I Cor 11:2).

3) You know the teachings I give you and you know what you heard me say and saw me do. So follow my example (Phil 4:9).

So, are these three examples to follow just superfluously vague ... or are they words given in sermons and private teachings to three different churches (In Thessolonica, Corinth and to the Philistines) that have never been recorded in the Bible?

Well, I would say the third example states the case strongest ... what you HEARD me say and SAW me do. Not the WORDS YOU READ, but the example I have given you.

This is not open to individual interpretation. Literally hundreds and thousands of people with better understandings than I hope to attain compliled the books that were deemed worthy.

As to the point of John the Forerunner being the first Baptist ... it seems this in an admission the Baptist sect is not Christian at all, since John himself said he was not worth to carry the boots of the one who comes after me.

As for the point about the Orthodox error, I cannot disagree with you more.

The Orthodox had never in its entire history sought to have formal political power over any other human beings on earth. It has consistently been, from Day 1, invitation-only in pursuit of a truth which has been established 2000 years ago.

The truth is available for all who wish to open their hearts and to gain understanding. The invitation always stands.

Don't be afraid of offending those who would keep you away from it.


Posted by: Set you free | 2006-07-19 11:03:54 AM


This requires no response.

Set you free and Conrad. Lets agree to disagree. Speller and I will follow the Word of God (The Bible) and you can follow your Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church supplementary
readings. No more arguing about it. It's done. Ah ah ah ah ah, don't even type a thing.

Posted by: Andrew | 2006-07-19 12:19:02 PM


Andrew:

I can only guess your mind is made up and you don't want to be confused with the truth.

Keep your mind shut, then.

Posted by: Set you free | 2006-07-19 12:26:32 PM


Keep my mind shut? Just because I don't agree with your principles doesn't mean my mind is kept shut. Of all people I thought you'd be the last person to use that leftist tactic of "you should be open minded." Open mindedness is the most misused phrases. Such a thing does not exist. I could say that you've shut your mind to the idea that the Bible is the truth. Look, I may be part Irish but I'm not going to start beating up on Catholics and their similars (Eastern Orthodox). It's just not worth it.

Posted by: Andrew | 2006-07-19 12:38:22 PM


Andrew -

My own experience (i.e. tradition) is to leave this sort of thing to "the professionals" (clergy), but our individual philosophy of life has impact on our political views. Since I view this web site as sort of a political discussion forum (and a place where I became aware that the main stream media lie about Canadians all hating Americans, was actually finally contradicted) it seems that from time to time even a amateur like me "must" chime in with a little "religious" talk in support of a viewpoint which I might attempt to advance.

This War on Terrorism is a giant problem and one which has the Muslim "religious" philosophy engine behind it. Like any normal person, I am mad as hell that the Muslim folks don't just stand up and throw the nutcases out, and of course I question if that action is even possible since there is so much actual evil and false within that religion, BUT, I can't pretend not to realize the likely situation that Muslim people have real reason to fear breaking away from their traditional cultural upbringing. So, it is likely that while we all try to encourage Muslims to progress at the same time as we fear and protect ourselves from them, that we are probably going to compare and contrast the religious views those folks espouse, with the views which comprise our own tradition and culture.

The point is certainly NOT to "convert" Speller or you or anybody else, who is on our side, but rather to ferret out the nuggets of problem views which seem to lead the Muslims into such an horrific "culture" to the point that "real soon" they cannot be accepted among civilized nations.

Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2006-07-19 1:01:07 PM


ebt:

With all due respect, the Bible is not some chinese smorgasborg with which you can pick and choose those which serve a narrow viewpoint.

As you so rightly point out, closed-minded responses or no responses at all when certain practises have been questioned in the past is a cult-like response.

Andrew's particular viewpoint rejected 1600 years of understanding from thousands of people and gave credence to one founder, who somehow mistook John the Baptist for the saviour.

It's not a matter of preference, as you suggest.

It's just logical that the people who decided which texts were worthy of being part of the Holy Scriptures did so for a reason.

So, what reason would there to be to include texts that said at times verbal instruction and example were just as valid as the written word?

There is no logical reason, therefore, to include only written texts, since there are verbal and exemplary instructions that complete full understanding of the truth.

The canons themselves, the saints who showed how lives should be lived and all else that came in the previous 1600 years is also necessary to a full understanding. All that history cannot be dismissed because of a political disagreement with the Catholic Church.

That's baby with the bathwater territory. Even though Catholic administrations may have been corrupt, not bowing to the collective will of the entire Church, it does not logically follow the basic spiritual principles are incorrect.

Anything short is supreficial, especially interpretation by one individual ... which quite clearly leads to the sin of pride.

Anybody can go up just for eggrolls, but then they are missing out on the entire menu.

Posted by: Set you free | 2006-07-19 1:47:25 PM


Didn't address the praying to statues and Terraphim issue, again. Veneration you say? Pahshaw.

The 'saints' your statues and relics purport to represent are asleep in the grave waiting for the 'Blessed Hope'. The trumpets call.

Mary was not 'ever virgin' as in a virgin for the rest of her life, she bore Joseph other sons and daughters.
MARK 6
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the BROTHER of JAMES, and JOSES, and of JUDA, and SIMON? and ARE NOT HIS SISTERS here with us? And they were offended at him.

Mary:
Queen of Heaven/Mother of God
http://www.spiralgoddess.com/Mary.html

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/sunburst.htm

http://www.topical-bible-studies.org/37-0012.htm


There is no shroud that covered Christ. There is no splinters of the true cross. There are enough femurs of 'Mark' to make up five men.
Terraphim.

Christ knew people would idolize such objects.

No, this isn't a discussion.

MATTHEW Chapter 23
9 And call no man your FATHER upon the earth: for one is your FATHER, which is in heaven.
What do catholics call their priests and the pope? Answer: Father.
Jesus says NO. It is pagan.

MATTHEW Chapter 6
7 But when ye pray, use not VAIN REPETITIONS, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

What do the catholics do? They take the example of praying format which Christ gave them and turn it into VAIN REPETITIONS counting each repetition on the rosary, which in itself is pagan. Hindus and a number of other pagan religions use counting beads for repetitious prayers. Catholics use the same method to pray to Mary who lies sleeping in her grave.

1 CORINTHIANS Chapter 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all SLEEP, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


REVELATION Chapter 17
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

4 And the woman was arrayed in PURPLE and SCARLET colour, and decked with GOLD and precious stones and pearls, having a GOLDEN CUP IN HER HAND full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
http://www.wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl030003.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills_of_Rome

http://biblelight.net/vatican.htm

Posted by: Speller | 2006-07-19 2:28:39 PM


That's incorrect set you free. Nobody mistook John the Baptist as the saviour. You cannot lie about us and say it's fact. In the Bible people consistently heard, were saved and were baptised. There are no instances of infant baptism in the Bible but there are clearly ones of born again Christian baptisms. Not baptised, heard and whatever the heck Catholics do because they sure aren't born again Christians as is Biblical doctrine. Jesus clearly stated that we are born again when he spoke to Niccademus (sp?).

You want to attack my religion and call me us a cult? So far I have showed restraint but you're asking for it now. No more restraint.

Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches are nothing but blatant hypocrisy. They own large plots of land and even have their own country and then have the balls to They don't facilitate the reading of the Bible but rather encourage the reading of supplemental texts written by some Catholic or Eastern Orthodox priests. Personal faith is nearly non-existent in those "faiths". You go confess your sins to the priests. That's some kind of bs my friend. The priest can't save you. Talk about idolatry. They've turned faith into some mechanical practice whereby you go to church, say some prayer written by some saint, pray to a priest and put in your time. (by the way, the Bible says all Christians are saints) I'm sick and tired of your elitist Catholics and Eastern Orthodox folks who look down on us. You are slaves to your structured religion.

Speller and I aren't religious; we are spiritual. We actually have a relationship with God. We don't go through some middle man priest. You guys are just like the Pharisees. You're all hung up on traditions. I'll say to you what Jesus said to the Pharisees. You're nothing but fools. Ignorant fools. That's all I have to say about that.

Posted by: Andrew | 2006-07-19 2:33:11 PM


Which large plots of lands do Eastern Orthodox churches hold?

The ones their monastaries are held on? So?

It is absolutely incorrect to say Bible reading is not encouraged by Orthodox and Catholic. Without reading ALL Biblical text, not just selected texts, a complete understanding is impossible.

Your view seems to be all truth is exclusively in the Bible. Orthodox says the content of the Bible is the Holy Scriptures agreed to by a series of church councils as the truth.

Since you choose to ignore the evidence already presented to you in three seprerate passages to three different churches that Tradition also plays a part in the entire spiritual experience, perhaps you believe the Church itself is not important.

I know that you do not recognize the efforts and struggles of human beings prior to 1600 AD, but you do so at your own peril. It's not a matter of being elitist, it's a matter of absorbing all the facts from thousands of our ancestorse, not the personal interpretation of one person.

Just look at II Peter 1:20. But you need to realize that no one alone can understand the prophecies in the Scriptures.

In other words, it's not up to any individual, including any individual pope or any founder of a Protestant cult. It's right there in your Bible. Why do you choose to discount that particular statement?

So now, we have found two specific instructions that you choose to ignore. Does seeing your ignorance make us elitist?

I Timothy 3:15 says ... After all, the church of the living God is the strong foundation of truth.

Read again ... the church of the living God. Like any hospital, the hospital of the soul has to have doctors. They're called priests. In schools, they are called teachers. In garages, they're called mechanics.

Those are the people who make it their life's work to know about the subject and who understand these issues better than somebody 1600 years removed from the fact.

And finally, why was there never any question about infant baptism in the history of the church until the 1600's? It's because everybody understood that is the Tradition of the practise that preceded Christianity.

Shallow. Shallow. Shallow.

Posted by: Set you free | 2006-07-19 4:05:51 PM


Set you free, you have lied in your post. II Peter 1:20 reads : Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (KJV) You are nothing but a con. You changed the words of the Bible. The real words actually work against your agenda. The "verse" you quoted has nothing to do with the actual verse.

The actual verse refers to this II Peter 1:19 : We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.

II Peter 1:21 reads "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. "

Your attempt at supporting fallible writers has fallen short. The actual readings say that the Bible is the authority. Maybe you should have anticipated that I would look up the verse. Shame on your teacher of lies!

Just to let you know. I'm not a Protestant. I am a Landmark Baptist which means my faith existed before yours. If anything, you are the Protestant cult my friend. I have nothing to protest, I belong to the first church.

Why not reveal all of I Timothy 3:15?
Here it is for those of us who are open and clear : But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The Church is not a building or an entity. It is the people. You have obviously lost sight of that. Is it now acceptable for people to have a church in their home such as missionaries in Japan do because they cannot afford a building nor do they necessatate one. You are nothing but a Pharisee Set you free. Nothing but a Pharisee and you ain't fair you see.

Posted by: Andrew | 2006-07-19 4:36:10 PM


Andrew:

I'm using the Contemporary English Version of the New Testament which clearly states the passage as I had written it in my post. I just re-checked it and the intent in both Contemporaty English and King James is precisely the same ... no one man can interpret the prophecies.

I Timothy 3:15, the entire passage, deals with the qualifications of officers and officials of the church.

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a Landmark Baptist, who was its founder and when did it first appear in history? Or does historical accuracy matter to you?

If, as you claim, it appeared earlier than the Acts of the Apostles, when the Church was established, it cannot possibly be Christian. To be part of the ancient church would have meant proof of apostolic succession in one of the ancient Pentarchy ... Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople and many years later, Rome.

Which apostle founded the Landmark Baptist sect? John the Baptist doesn't count because he came before the establishment of the Church as outlined in the Acts of the Apostles. I assume you read the Bible, but yet you have show ignorance of another basic tenet that's outlined in the Bible.

By my count, that's the third instance today in which you have chosen to ignore important tenets of the Bible, from which you purport to gain all your understanding. Yet, you show little understand even the basics, never mind the complexities of the spirituality.

Obviously, the Church is the people, the community and the understanding that people can come to through the help of others.

A Pharisee, in my religion's understanding of thousands of years who purports himself to be saved merely by going through the motions of some 300 commandments that have been developed in the Jewish religion at the time of Jesus. A Pharisee, also, was a man learned of the Scriptures followed by the Jewish religion at that time.

God be merciful to me a sinner more describes my view (but thanks for not asking before passing judgement on me).

What that means is a recognition of my spiritual imperfection and a striving, with the help of others, to struggle all my life to reach that perfection.

Only God can forgive me because only God knows my heart.

You need to ask yourself why the people around you are not telling you the whole story. What exactly is it they are tying to hide?

Sigh. I guess George Orwell was right. Ignorance is bliss.

Posted by: Set you free | 2006-07-19 5:45:54 PM


I am glad that you have come to the conclusion that your ignorance is bliss.

I believe in Landmarkism and not necessarily all the beliefs of Landmark Baptists as I am a Fellowship Baptist. I believe in Baptism successionism. Baptist successionism is the theory that there exists an unbroken chain of churches that have held the beliefs (though not always the name) of the current Baptist churches since the time of Christ.

Many of the ancient churches that held baptistic beliefs suffered great persecution by governments, instigated by Catholics and Protestants alike. This raises the possibility that the writings of such groups may have been destroyed.

Baptist successionism is primarily routed in Biblical interpretation. People who supported the idea were often falsely accused of being dualistic by the Catholic church but it should be noted that they pretty much accused anybody who wasn't Catholic of doing so.

As for our founder, our founder was Christ. We continued His teachings.

Posted by: Andrew | 2006-07-19 6:30:58 PM


Didn't address the praying to statues and Terraphim issue, again. Veneration you say? Pahshaw.

The 'saints' your statues and relics purport to represent are asleep in the grave waiting for the 'Blessed Hope'. The trumpets call.

Mary was not 'ever virgin' as in a virgin for the rest of her life, she bore Joseph other sons and daughters.
MARK 6
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the BROTHER of JAMES, and JOSES, and of JUDA, and SIMON? and ARE NOT HIS SISTERS here with us? And they were offended at him.

Mary:
Queen of Heaven/Mother of God
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/sunburst.htm

http://www.topical-bible-studies.org/37-0012.htm


There is no shroud that covered Christ. There is no splinters of the true cross. There are enough femurs of 'Mark' to make up five men.
Terraphim.

Christ knew people would idolize such objects.

No, this isn't a discussion.

MATTHEW Chapter 23
9 And call no man your FATHER upon the earth: for one is your FATHER, which is in heaven.
What do catholics call their priests and the pope? Answer: Father.
Jesus says NO. It is pagan.

MATTHEW Chapter 6
7 But when ye pray, use not VAIN REPETITIONS, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

What do the catholics do? They take the example of praying format which Christ gave them and turn it into VAIN REPETITIONS counting each repetition on the rosary, which in itself is pagan. Hindus and a number of other pagan religions use counting beads for repetitious prayers. Catholics use the same method to pray to Mary who lies sleeping in her grave.

1 CORINTHIANS Chapter 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all SLEEP, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


REVELATION Chapter 17
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

4 And the woman was arrayed in PURPLE and SCARLET colour, and decked with GOLD and precious stones and pearls, having a GOLDEN CUP IN HER HAND full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
http://www.wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl030003.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills_of_Rome

As a matter of fact much of the Baptists church's history has been spent underground hiding from persecution.

When I was born again it came about from reading the Holy Bible and Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

Catholics like Set you free don't like to prove their beliefs with scripture because they are virtual Bible illiterates.

Posted by: Speller | 2006-07-19 6:57:45 PM


I think that's why the invented the Bible condensed and for dummies called the catachism(sp?).

Posted by: Andrew | 2006-07-19 7:13:09 PM



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