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Friday, June 09, 2006
Canadian Muslim teacher Sayyid Ahmed Amiruddin says there is an influx of extremist Saudi Arabian dictates in Canada:
Amiruddin says Khalid used to come to his mosque to
pray, sometimes in the company of Zakaria Amara and Fahim Ahmad, two of
the alleged ringleaders.
“They would enter into the mosque to pray, and they would pray in a
very aggressive manner, and they would come in military fatigues and
military touques and stuff. It looked to me that they were watching a
lot of those Chechnyan jihad videos online and stuff.”
Amiruddin is a teacher of Sufism, a traditional brand of Islam that
rejects the ideology of jihad. Amiruddin says the group was seduced by
hardline propaganda financed by the Saudi government and promoting a
strict, Wahhabi brand of Islam.
He says the Saudis have flooded Canada with free Qur’ans, laced with jihadist commentary.
“In the back of these Qur’ans that are being published in Saudi
Arabia, you have basically essays on the need for offensive jihad and
the legitimacy of offensive jihad and things like that. Very alarming
stuff,” he said.
Amiruddin said many mainstream Muslim organizations in Canada are
really part of the problem, standing by as extremist propaganda spreads
in the mosques.
He cites the Al-Rahman centre in Mississauga, Ont., which he links to the Al-Maghrib Institute,
which runs a popular educational website. It’s nominally run out of
Ottawa, but Amiruddin says it’s really a Saudi operation. (CBC)
I refer readers back to this article on Saudia Arabian textbooks after the intolerance was removed…. The Al-Maghrib Institute lists three Canadian student tribes - Qabeelat Ansar (Ottawa), Qabeelat Asad (Montreal) and Qabeelat Majd (Toronto). A Wikipedia article states that the majority of its instructors have degrees from the Islamic University of Madinah based in Saudi Arabia whose objective is spreading the teachings of Islam world-wide. The websites for the Canadian student tribes are currently down.
What Sayyid is saying pieces together but I am unable to verify the Al-Rahman - Saudi connection. Help appreciated. (c/p)
Posted by Darcey on June 9, 2006 in Religion | Permalink
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The only way to be sure, is to forbid mosques in Canada, send all unassimilated Muslims back where they came from.
Insist on assimilation for all immigrants or they must go home.
Otherwise, we will never bve sure of peace in Canada regarding the Islamic Jihad or any other kind of jihads that may come down the pike in the future.
We have enough trouble with our own left without having to deal with megalomanaical imams all over the country.
Survivial of freedom and prosperity people! ... that's what is at stake. Our left doesn't want freedom and prosperity, but a hell of a lot of the rest of us do and should be willing to do what it takes to protect our way of life.
Anyone? anyone? Beuller! what was it you said about 'isms'
Posted by: Duke | 2006-06-09 10:23:56 AM
I like wahabbi in my sushi.
Any other uses are up for debate.
Posted by: Set you free | 2006-06-09 10:30:12 AM
Apparently they need large quantities of wasabi stuck up the wahhabi yin-yangs?
Perhaps it is the shape of the buildings? Rather square?
I was going to say, "gets them all running around in circles" but then that might be interpreted as unladylike?
Posted by: Lady | 2006-06-09 10:43:09 AM
Moderates, extremists, the perpetuation of a myth.
Islam is extreme. Mohammed was extreme. Even by the standards of his day, Mohammed was a brutal blood-thirsty reprobate.
Why single out the Wahhabi/Salaffi Sunni view of Islam.
Aren't the Shia who run Iran every bit as extreme?
Posted by: Speller | 2006-06-09 11:29:23 AM
I guess this place belongs to you folks and I ought to vacate, but perhaps a last comment.
About one-quarter of the world is Muslim.
Plan A is a costly ethical War on Terrorism in which we set the stage for nations to establish their own democratic governments with protection of minority rights, where the nations work through the issues of allowing people to disagree without that being their last living act on earth.
Plan B is a necklace of glowing glass beads from Morrocco to Indonesia.
In North America we have for decades, generations, many (millions) of Arab descent people living among us with zero problem, and huge benefits, until now that the main stream media has only one focus; our differences.
Aside: The main stream media is Communist, dedicated to distruction of individual liberty, as is the American Democrat Party and the Liberals in Canada.
We are currently working on Plan A.
If you folks in Canada want to screw that up because you are WAY ahead of America in the march toward "Liberal" Communism, and you want to expell all Muslims, and "force" assimilation, and all kinds of dumb ass ideas like that, well good for you. (How about building your own army which fights rather than fills out UN papers?).
Alternatively, keep your police forces vigilent, work with all of the good people who you have allowed to enter your country (weed out the screw ups, one by one), and let's pray that this thing works out well, with the Iraqis running a good fair-minded government which provides justice for the many decades of evil, but with somehow holding in check the terrible desire for just blood lust retaliation and retribution and vengence, which I don't really know how I could possibly restrain within myself if I had suffered as those folks have suffered.
Plan A. has a chance and has a future. It is going to always be real tough and for a real long time. Consequently, it is undoubtedly the correct plan.
Plan B. is seemingly simple and quick and easy.
My life has been one long Plan A. Fortunately, I have always lived among and associated with people who were vastly smarter and better than me and my own stupid inclination toward Plan B has been held in check.
Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2006-06-09 12:46:12 PM
OK, who designed the paperwork for the UN in the first place?
It's a liberal notion, that Officers and soldiers must be measured by their ability to fill out a form, over their ability to aim straight.
Posted by: Lady | 2006-06-09 12:54:10 PM
If you read a few of the info from the links, you will see them doing things for Allah. That is the essence of paganism. People doing things for their gods.
The real problem in Canada is how to raise the level of awareness of people in order to understand the real threat. I suggest the creation of an organization aiming with the goal of closing all mosques and banning Islam in Canada.
Posted by: Rémi Houle | 2006-06-09 1:00:01 PM
Naw, it would be pretty extreme to close all mosques and ban Islam.
That type of approach was tried in the Soviet Unior, where thousands of Orthodox priests were murdered, churches closed and turned into museums.
Mainstreal Orthodoxy morphed into the Catacomb Church (went underground) and outlived the totatitarians. The issue is still unsettled there as Stalin created what's known as the Moscow Patriarchate, which was administered as a branch of government.
Prohibition has never worked. Those who believe in the purity of the message will always survive.
Best to shed light onto the concept that the prophet of Islam (Sumbission) showed exactly what he had in mind through his actions and questioning why any of its adherents would reject one of its basic tenets and still call themselves followers.
Posted by: Set you free | 2006-06-09 1:12:02 PM
I don't care what you say, I still like those old tv commercials...Whaaaaahabbi....
Posted by: MarkAlta | 2006-06-09 1:34:11 PM
Conrad, your Plan A neither takes into account what it means to be a Muslim, nor what it means for Muslims to have weapons of mass destruction.
Jews and Christians will allow me to have a difference of opinion, Muslims, and I'm talking about real Mohammedans, will not.
Time is on their side, not ours.
Posted by: Speller | 2006-06-09 2:08:23 PM
Speller - I agree with you seemingly all of the time (I didn't check any of the past threads, only my memory, so I hope that this foolishness of relying on my memory wasn't a blunder), but on this Muslim thing, I recognize the problems with their religion and with their terrible national cultures/experiences. I figure most of the Muslims we ever meet got the Hell out of their native lands because they hated all the aspects of it that we hate. And most of the Arabs here are fine (granted, most of the "fine" Arabs here may well be the Christian ones, and I'm not doing any research - they're here, LEGALLY).
The Plan B is going to happen soon. I think this is WAY too bad and I hope that I'm wrong, but Bush will lose the heart of the Republican Party over illegal immigration (take the true believers out of the Republican Party and the moderates remaining are indestinguishable from the tons of "Catholics" in the famously pro-abortionist Democrat Party, i.e. just a bunch of nothing).
Many bad things will follow, and quite quickly.
Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2006-06-09 2:35:26 PM
They did that in Nigeria, and it has resulted in rioting in the streets.
And besides, we have three systems here that are suppossed to control the fools. The first one is the police system. The second one is the court system. And the last one, but not least, is the government system.
Posted by: Lady | 2006-06-09 2:54:42 PM
Conrad well put!
I agree with Plan A. But unlike you I believe the American people will choose leaders to keep it in place because as you yourself once convinced me “America is blessed”.
IMO, when you think about the legacy you are leaving your kids; if you have 10 top priorities the first 8 are Islamofascism, 9 is your budget, 10 is your Immigration.
Posted by: nomdenet | 2006-06-09 3:04:09 PM
Conrad, I seem to remember we have a lot of ground for agreement as well.
However, where we disagree is on the premise that Muslims have come to Dar al Harb simply to live a better life.
If that premise were true, and I don't think it is, then we should be seeing them ditch Islam at the first opportunity.
Instead they are building mosques and bringing HELL with them from their native lands.
The lack of assimilation speaks volumes to me, especially because Canada is a cold temperate zone, and Islam aims to convert the entire earth into a desert and desert lifestyle, which was all Mohammed knew.
I see them as invaders not immigrants. Immigrants adopt the new culture, they don't establish ghetto-like beach heads and refuse to learn our language and our ways.
Posted by: Speller | 2006-06-09 3:09:02 PM
Check out the subleties between Mohammedans and Muslims.
The jihadists are today's version of what used to be called Mohammedans, those who worship and therefore emulate the actions of the prophet Muhammad.
Canadian Muslims, I'm guessing would worship Allah more than Muhammad. But then, they are caught in a dichotimy of how to separate church and state ... something that particular cult had had difficulty doing.
When they come to Canada, they are subject to a state religion that they had no concept even existed.
What we've seen around the world recently is a revival of the old-style Mohammedans.
Posted by: Set you free | 2006-06-09 3:24:36 PM
For all of my teary eyes and preachy tales, Plan B. works fine for me also. I am perfectly willing to endure a lot of difficulties to advance and evolve human society, but Plan B. solves lots of problems on all sides of the issue. All of the issues (effects will be on both sides) solved by Plan B. will come out the way that benefits me.
I see this as a sad situation where the "smart guys" (and girls) are going to get what they think they want.
Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2006-06-09 5:04:19 PM
the closed minded attitudes on this post plus plan B equal a nuculear holocaust that would throw us into ww3, most likely with an Iran-China-Russia-ME coalition, fomenting against a common fear of western agression--basically we would all be fcucked and dead. I hate to state the obvious but its not such a great idea to declare war on a quarter of the earths population based on the actions of a few thousand zeolots, tops. People are incapable of seperating their religion from politics, if I were to correllate agrressive acts by Christians througout history the list would be never ending--this doesnt mean that Christianity is the root of all these problems, or that stomping out Christianity would stop the worlds problems--(if it were even possible) such thinking is simplistic at best--terrorism has ALWAYS existed, and will always exist, overreaction is what occured in the U.S with the disaster of Iraq as the result, lets not follow suit. Anwyays I'm sure my rant is falling on deaf ears.
Posted by: Jon. B | 2006-06-09 7:39:34 PM
I disagree with Duke, Set You Free, Lady, Speller, & Rémi Houle.
Actually, I strongly disagree. To the point of disgust.
Listen to yourselves. You are as fanatical as your them are.
Moderate believers in islam are like moderate believers in christianity, judaism, et cetera. Moderate means rejecting the extreme elements of the coda, for example, the way moderate christians or jews reject the extreme edges of the old testament.
I know people who are moderate followers of islam. They, and I, are concerned about extremeists of any stripe, whether based on theology, politics, science, or anything else.
Conrad, however, is on the correct track, to some degree. What we need is for all reasonable prgamatists to work together to fight the extremists. Hell, I'm a bloody libertarian, and I don't like extremist libertarians either.
The allied forces' liberation of Iraq was a surgical incision into the fundamentalists' logistics. It included the stragetic advantage of positioning forward force bases in the region, and the moral advantage of freeing Iraqis from a horrible sadist.
If you can't separate that from a personal hatred of moderate followers of islam then you too are of the enemy. If you can't separate mosques from extremists, that you can't separate christian churches from white supreamacists.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Emad Canada |03/06/2006
Canada is a peacefull country, and the Canadian people are very peacefull, , and we would very much like to keep it this way.if those who got arrested, are convected, then the punishment must be harsh. We Canadian don`t want to see our peacefull nation unsafe. In Canada, either you live in peace, or get out of the country, leave us alone.
mustapha khaled |04/06/2006
Who would think of attacking Canada except a person of no morals and no faith? These are worst than animals and so is their leader
Syrian in Canada |04/06/2006
Stay away from this peaceful country you bastards!!!Canada has given nothing to the world but peace and prospirity , I swear you make me feel so ashamed to be an arab and muslim
Egyptypian who loves Canada |04/06/2006
God Bless you Canada,, I love Canada..Canada gave us more than what my real original Country did
As a canadian muslim I thnak god that these bastards were caught before innocent life is lost
god bless canada, canada gave them new home , freedom , job , and look what they are doing
Only the true moslems in the mosques could stop the young people that are drifting towards terorisim and these extreem ideas that does nothing but harm moslems all over the world. I challange all true moslems in the world including ofcourse Iraq, Jordan, Palsetine to fight these unbelivable ideology that is only hurting us as ARABS everywhere
Why are they doing this? there are lots of muslems in canada and i am one of them. We are treat just like everyone else and we are very happy in canada. That might cause some trouble for us now. Those idiots
Needless to say the ignorance , stupidity and ill minds of those people. it is great they were busted before anything happens
stay away from my and our peaceful country......GOD BLESS CANADA for ever
Palestinian in Canada |04/06/2006
CANADA is our home . u screw with it and u screw with us.. stay away from CANADA
Also they should put their parents in Jail or kick them out of Canada. I saw Shreef Abdulhaleem`s dad in a photo on Yhaoo. They are saying he was emigrated from Egypt 20 years ago and now he`s very religious man and got a long white beard
Canda Gave home to a lot of arabs /muslims and we live happily and making good living here. Canada is the best countr y and 1000 times better than any countryin the world.STAY AWAY FROM CANDA AND SPREAD PEACE ONLY PEACE ..ENOUGH KILLING .I swear I`m so ashamed to be an arab and muslim
Shouky - Lebanon |04/06/2006
Hey you fanatic , be aware , we will not allow you to spoil the democracy , freedom and the humanitarian concept and prosperous life Canada and Canadians are enjoying
A Canadian Moslem |04/06/2006
O Canada, our home and native land.....We stand on guard for thee. I am so glad that the police caught this group red handed with explosive materials. On behalf of all Canadian Moslems I condemn terrorists and their idealogy. My message to young brainwashed to-be-terrorists: It is absolutely and categorically forbidden in Islam to commit suicide or to kill innocent people. Any teacher who tells you the opposit is a criminal whom you should stay away from
tunisian from holland |04/06/2006
Thank you all for your love to canada your country, but please go to the street demonstrate against those evels show the canadians that you are on their side, and you` won`t let those extremist, fanatics harm the country. i said this coze we haven`t done that in holland, and we all nows how bad treatment moslims get here in holland
How can this happen in such wonderful country like Canada???? I myself as a Muslim Canadian cannot tolerate the fact that such a thing would happen there. Canada is a country that embraced us with an open arm at times were it was difficult for us to be in other places, a country that stands for total freedom of choice. Instead of educating the society about Islam we are sinking deeper & deeper into the ideology of Al Qaeda…. If feel ashamed of such people. All I have to say is Sorry Canada I hope that you can forgive us
Posted by: Vitruvius | 2006-06-09 9:11:15 PM
Vitruvius, I thought you claimed to be an atheist.
I have seen you Muslims demonstrate in the street against the battles of Afghanistan and Iraq. I have seen you Muslims demonstrate against Binyamin Netanyahu at Concordia U and stomp on Police cars and prevent a speaker on retainer from appearing and delivering his speaking engagement to a paying audience.(who where also roughed up in the presence of impotent police and prevented from entering the venue and taking their seats)
I have NEVER seen a spontanious PUBLIC demonstration against Islamic VIOLENCE by a group of Muslims. I have read about CAIR-CAN(an Non-elected Non-representatvie Mouthpiece for Islamic Taqiyya) issue spurious statements signifing NOTHING which is representative of the Muslim population of Canada.
Sure you can give us a shit load of Taqiyya that you have pulled off of the web, but we know al Quaida itself has websites.
Action speaks louder than words.
When you read someone saying one thing and DOING another, it is wise to pay attention to what they DO rather than what they SAY.
Posted by: Speller | 2006-06-09 10:19:41 PM
You would call me an a-theist, Speller. I would call my theology "phenonomenological non-deterministic mechanism".
What does that have to do with the fact that I don't a priori hate someone just because they believe in a deity-based form of theism, like you do? I am not an anti-theist.
And yet you assume so. As you assume so many other things. Why is that?
"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" --Alexander Solzhenitsyn
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." --Blaise Pascal
"An attitude of permanent indignation signifies great mental poverty. Politics compels its votaries to take that line and you can see their minds growing more impoverished every day, from one burst of righteous indignation to the next." --Valery
"It is the characteristic of the most stringent censorships that they give credibility to the opinions they attack." --Voltaire
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." --Bertrand Russell
Posted by: Vitruvius | 2006-06-09 10:47:26 PM
Yup, you're pretty sure doubts are wise. I think doubts are a sign of doubt, nothing to be proud of.
Just because YOU don't know or comprehend doesn't mean I or others don't.
Drive it or park it, just get out of the way. If you can't make a judgement to action, stop trying to obstruct people who can.
There is a war on and it's heating up.
I didn't say you were anti-deist, I said you were pro-Muslim.
Dig it? or you might get buried.
Posted by: Speller | 2006-06-10 12:14:22 AM
I doubt it.
Posted by: Vitruvius | 2006-06-10 12:22:41 AM
Posted by: Speller | 2006-06-10 12:26:34 AM
Let me add my little grain of salt (this is a french expression!).
One comment about judging by what they do, not by what they say could be rephrased like a joke: I don't hear what you say because what you do (or don't do) speaks too loud!
Anyone heard about Whalid Shoebat? He was a muslim terrorist who became a born again Christian. I think he has a lot to say and we should examine carefully his arguments.
I have known personnaly some muslims and arabs. As a person they were nice and warm. I don't reject them. I had a close and friendly relationship with a Turk for years. He was one of the good friends I ever had. But he was not interested in Islam. He left his country because he was a freedom activist. He had to choose between prison and immigration.
I like the idea of Conrad's plan A. I sincerely hope that this will succeed. I think that the debate is getting interesting because people are proposing plans and actions.
I realize it would be very difficult to uproot Islam in Canada. But what choices do we have? Is it possible to expurge the Koran of its violence and murder and lies? As long as muslims keep quiet and don't act on Koran's principles and integrate to Canadian values, I will accept them. But last year, the RCMP has thwarted 12 terrorist plans. And now we have 17 people in prison. What's next, people?
I think we cannot stay with our arms crossed and stand by doing nothing.
In Germany, they made a large effort to uproot Nazis. I understand there still is a small number of them, but it seems to be under control. Since I think Islam in its current form is a type of facism, it should be fought and uprooted. Maybe we will not succeed completely, but the situation will be under control.
I would also suggest to close the border to any muslim person. That we can certainly do.
Otherwise, I'm afraid the country we live in and love will become like those hellish places we hear about. So people if Canada is not a country you would enjoy anymore, where would you move?
Posted by: Rémi Houle | 2006-06-10 7:40:52 AM
Have you ever done anything wrong?
Have you ever been afraid?
On the Internet, communicating into thin air, it's possible that you (or me) are communicating from outer space. So, my questions are relevant. Otherwise, if you are here on earth, then your answers are: "Of course!"
Then, why do you act as though you can't comprehend other people, (a) doing something wrong, either knowingly or inadvertently, and (b) being afraid to show their true feelings and disclose their true thoughts, especially when one considers the nasty evil history of hurting one's relatives and family (as in, back "home" in say Syria, or Lebanon, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, and points further toward Hell)?
In Canada you folks got one giant step away from having to deal with real fear of Communist Soviet Russia, and Communist China. Down here in America, we got the whole enchilada, military service, dead brothers in Viet Nam. Doesn't even hurt if you say it fast (I suppose that would be true, if you could talk at the speed of light and you were drunk or dead at the time).
Quit acting as though you have no empathy for your fellow man.
Yes, I am aware that the Muslim religion has such profoundly evil aspects to it (i.e. TEACHING lying, in order to benefit yourself! What in the Hell type of "religious" philosophy is this? We get all the lying to cover the earth ten feet thick in Christianity, and we have God's Commandment prohibiting it).
Vitruvius says that "Conrad is on the right track - to some degree."
No, I'm 100% correct, in every degree, on this situation.
Speller - we are an ocean away from the source of this problem. That is a benefit which will allow us to "handle" whatever small percentage of actual screw ups there are among the people of Arab - Middle Eastern - descent/Muslims who came to live among us.
We can do a good thing by continuing to welcome these people, and to avoid treating them in a manner which makes them marginalized and insecure in their own ("new") homes among us (my family has only been here a few generations, so I'm plenty "new" too).
Speller - I am an "extremist" Roman Catholic, which would mean that I just attempt to simply follow a very human oriented Christian Church philosophy, but today, that is WEIRD! The Catholic Church used to have a Sacrament which we called Confession (they call it Penance more frequently now, probably in anticipation of soon removing the actual private conversation interaction with an ordained priest). In Confession one did just that, confessed his sins after examining your life and realizing what you had done which was wrong which you were sorry for, to God. You knew that God knew everything in exact Truth, you couldn't "hide" sins but still you had to confess them honestly to another human being and discuss them and get guidance, also knowing, as a Catholic, that if you succeeded in "fooling" the priest, i.e. didn't tell him the truth, well, good for you, your sins were NOT forgiven, as the result of your phony exercise in lying. And if you didn't get your sins forgiven, you could not be in a State of Grace (as we Catholics used to talk) and thus, you could not go to Heaven. You went somewhere else.
All of this is very humbling, or more accurately, it is humanizing.
The fact that the Catholic Church has almost entirely eliminated the Sacrament of Confession is just one of the many eggregious crimes which I feel is at the root of why I blame the Catholic Church for much of the total Communist evil which has creeped into our societies. and the queer priests and bishops and popes have been thrilled to preside over this swirling around the bowl toward the sewer.
Muslims, have a lot of good reason to want to hold firm and fast to their orthodoxy.
The materialist Communist atheist crap which is the essence of the moral decay of Western Civilization is a fearful thing for a man or a woman who is living their life in a normal human situation of a family with kids.
Speller - Can you not have empathy for people who hold to a religious philosophy, which might have lots of arcane faults and ideas, but doesn't set their little girls up to act like whores or their sons to become queery metrosexual animals in order to be "popular"?
I see the Muslims as great allies in an effort to lead humanity toward goodness for all humans.
Vitruvius styles himself as some advanced atheist. I don't have any real problem with that, as I view it as a normal intelligent human effort to understand life, but without the humility or the gift of Faith. I think that God gives each of us a sufficient gift of "grace" so that we can eventually come to belief. Vitruvius' situation seems to me to be a tough road which provides no helpful guidelines to prevent mishaps. If one doesn't have children, who cares, but if you screw up little kids with that kind of thinking it turns the world into a Liberal Canada (just ready to drop into the Communist toilet, unless somebody else saves it).
Exactly the opposite of everything I ever thought about my manly broad shouldered friendly neighbor to the north.
Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2006-06-10 9:32:23 AM
Conrad, down in the US you've got just as much communism as we have up here in Canada.
The US created and hosts the UN. The UN was the brainchild of Soviet spy Alger Hiss, adviser to POTUS' FDR and HST.
John Kerry had a lot of votes in 2004 and he wrote 'Winter Soldier'.
I have empathy, Conrad. My feelings are for the victims of Islam not the practitioners.
I understand your empathy with Islam, as Catholicism is more similar to Islam(both have long histories of slaughtering 'infidels' and know nothing of the contents of the bible while pretending to patronize it), than real biblical Christianity.
I understand your complacency with atheism, as so many atheists started out as Catholics.
Your 'extreme' RC views have made you soft in the head.
Posted by: Speller | 2006-06-10 10:01:16 AM
Wow! Quite a bit to chew on.
You seem to be saying freedom is a gift that Western civilization is in the process of squandering and that the Muslim world is acting partly in response to a fear the decadence will somehow submerge them. Right? Wrong?
It today's context, that might be correct. Yet, throughout history, the Muhammedan reality has always been there, even as societies around the Muslim world walked the narrowest path of spiritual purity.
Same stage (the earth), different actors and how they play out this continuing improvisational theatre will determine the future direction. Live in the moment, allow no fear of the future to be stirred up through those who wish to have power over you.
I'm unsure of what to make of biblical prophecies about the inevitable victory of Satan over the earth prior to the second coming, but I'm convinced we're witnessing it now.
Purely through personal observation, a large majority of Muslims are not much different in their search for the ultimate truth through the Holy Spirit as are Christians, yet they are not allowed to acknowledge existence of the Holy Trinity.
They are left with to take the prophet's word and, people being people, a certain small percentage focus their energies on emulating the actions of the prophet rather than seek God (or Allah). Those are the Muhammedans, or today's jihadists.
As brought out here by several poster sources, its mission is domination of the world through force, as opposed to the classic Christian approach of teaching.
Even though the Muhammedans purport to follow the tenets of the Ten Commandments, they fall short on at least two counts ... No. 6 Thou shalt not kill and No. 9 Thou shalt not bear false witness (dealing with lying and deception).
And, arguably the No. 1 commandmen of Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
We have learned about how lying and deception are encouraged. And we know how Muhammad took the power of playing God on earth by being judge, jury and executioner of those who would not Submit (defenition of Islam).
Now, since Muhammad sought power on earth, to be the God of earth, he was in effect the inheritor, the one who carried out the will of Satan. That's because Satan is the master of the earth, given him after his expulsion due to his arrogant belief he was more important than God the Creator.
All these principles were laid out clearly in the Old Testament and when Jesus was on the earth, he fended off the tempation of Satan to become ruler of this earth.
Muhammad came by 632 years later, cloaked himself with a cursory understanding of the depths of God's covenant, then set about on a mission to ... dominate the earth, a quest which has not changed in principle for more than 1400 years.
I feel liike screaming out like than mother in Beslan, who lost several children in another monstrous chapter of terror a year ago: “All we want to do is live in peace. Why can't they just leave us alone?'
By the way, the Orthodox Church still retains all seven sacraments, including confession.
The truth is out there.
Posted by: Set you free | 2006-06-10 10:30:36 AM
Very interesting. Way to go in order to deal with Islam. If we could convince muslim countries to accept free competition among different faiths, that would partially solve the problem. To be a member of UN, a country should accept freedom of religion for its citizens! Maybe a dream, but why not give it a try?
I am convinced that muslims willing to listen to the Gospel would join Christians. Because we humans are looking for love and we want to make sure we make it to heaven.
Satan is still roaming the earth. But he lost authority when Christ rose from the death. Now Christians (born again) have authority on the earth because of our relationship with Christ.
Posted by: Rémi Houle | 2006-06-10 12:19:39 PM
It seems that you are a young person. You seem to be smart, probably a student or perhaps an academic. And I see that you are proud of and love your country. I hope you will do some more thinking, I'd hate to lose you from the company of the good guys.
I recommend that you find something which is a large responsibility in your eyes, involving other people, and commit to it and do it. Hopefully you will fail at it.
Early failures are often less costly than later ones. And I think you would learn valuable things, that you need to learn while young.
Safe government jobs and academic jobs keep people in a childish state.
Being single, or being "married" and childless, is a similar situation.
Of course I want good things for you, as I do for everyone, but the best thing is to have real life experiences, including failures.
The only thing I ever asked my kids to do for me was to "Get an F."
Get a failing grade.
When they would come to me and say they wanted to "take a year off" from school, or that they were going to fail a course. I just told them to stay with it, no matter what, and get an "F" but don't quit.
Amazingly, nobody actually ever got an "F" and nobody quit either.
Speller - stick with everything you believe but do take on a real responsibility, outside of yourself (e.g not like just taking another course in school, etc.). Maybe it is only after you screw up something yourself, and take responsibility for it, that you actually develop empathy. I think it will improve your life.
Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2006-06-10 12:50:35 PM
Christ's death did not defeat Satan. His blood paid for the new covenant with God.
If it were true that Christ's presense on earth defeated Satan's authority, then that would spell an end to his powers of temptation, which clearly still exist. To say otherwise would be to belittle the contribution of those who came before Christ.
Prophecy states that Satan will eventually rule the whole earth and that will signal the Second Coming.
The belief that all one has to do is accept a relationship with Christ is a fundamental delusion of the born-again movement, which has no roots in ancient understandings since it chooses to ignore all understandings of the early church councils and creates its own rootless religion.
Much of the same is happening in the World Council of Churches, which seeks to create an entirely new religion, something early Christians could not even begin to recognize.
To me, born again is just a cloak of legitimacy that people can slip on without having to work at understanding the fundamentals or bothering with history, its traditions and examples of people who actually lived in the earlier times.
It brings to mind the case of the NFL player who, on the night he received a community service award and portrayed himself as a Christian family man, went out and solicited the services of a prostitute. The fact it happened to be an undercover police officer exposed how easy this sham can be carried out.
Even though Christ is the door to the truth, he himself said he was open to criticism, but the Holy Spirit was not. The Holy Spirit is mentioned in Genesis as part of creation. Jesus was sent only to remind humanity how they had strayed from the original message and had made obedience to man-made laws and aspirations a higher priority than obedience to God's (or natural) law.
There are plenty of examples of the difficulty of trying to escape Muslim, which in effect is a life sentence. If anybody dares leave, the price to pay is their life. And, that's just the harsh reality of it.
Freedom of choice is a unknown concept in Islam.
Posted by: Set you free | 2006-06-10 1:04:32 PM
Conrad, I'll be celebrating my 23rd wedding anniversary in November.
While I have had some notable struggles in my life, life has been an unqualified success.
I have my GED and an IQ of 170.
I have had some hard character building experiances, and I think failure is over rated.
I have rarely failed in life but been beaten often. There is a difference.
I own two houses, one is in Calgary and the other isn't.
Posted by: Speller | 2006-06-10 5:43:21 PM
I second Speller's position.
And I would like to raise the debate a tad.
Do you know why many in the left get all zealous about racial profiling?
Because it means expossing the issues around recent immigrants from certain countries and rape.
I would like you to read the following two links, as the issues reference terrorism are greater than three tons of ammonium nitrate being switched before delivery.
And read this is not old news, as Mark Steyn wrote about it is 2002.
And although religion is an issue when it comes to dangerous ideologies, as shown above, not all the damage is done by those who hold deep seated wahabist sentiments.
The connection between the two, those who are religious and terrorists, with those who are not, and are rapists, are the ideologies. In relation to the rape, the rape is not limited, but is primarily aimed at women. I have spoken with enough men whose sisters, girlfriends, or potential girlfriends have been raped, and the damage goes on for years. And the cost to Canadians is in the hundreds of millions.
I would like ton know what percentage of the rapes in Canada are performed by those in and of the ilk of whom there is concern.
If the dangers are known, more women could better protect themselves.
The subject, the link between terrorism, rape and also drugs is receiving increased attention on other blogospheres!
Posted by: Lady | 2006-06-10 7:31:45 PM
Your comment, Speller, to the effect that: "I have rarely failed in life but been beaten often," intrigues me. I say that because my personal relationship to those matters would be that: "I have often failed, but I have never been beaten."
Some might say that I'm a failure and you're a loser. I guess life's like that, eh what?
English has a word for doubting too little, folks, it's: "hubris". It is often the case that just when humans are most sure of themselves they make their biggest mistakes. I advise everyone to try to avoid that, not that my opinion matters.
Posted by: Vitruvius | 2006-06-10 11:34:14 PM
I misjudged your age/life experiences.
May I clarify one small aspect of my story about the advice I gave to my own children. When confronted by their "plans" to try to get out of a difficult situation or escape from an embarassing or defeating situation (mostly relating to school, but other aspects of life as well), I told them to just stick with it and: "Get an "F" " if that is the way it turned out, BUT LEARN SOMETHING from the class or the experience.
You see, down here there is so much pressure of materialism on people, particularly those who have no Faith in or understanding of the primary or spiritual aspect of life (i.e. religion).
People get all confused between doing that which looks good, versus that which is good.
I have so many years of "experience" (actually in this respect, one year of experience, repeated thirty-eight times) with other parents telling me that their kids were "getting all "A"s in school. I can't recall ever speaking with anyone whose child got other than an "A" grade in anything (except for my wife).
There are so many hillarious stories connected with this and I'd love to tell a bunch of them, and shouldn't waste your time, but I'm going to tell one.
My wife was at a swimming pool where one of our kids was taking a swimming lesson. There were lots of people in and around the pool of all ages. My wife sat down next to a lady who began telling her all about how smart her daughter was and that the daughter was going to be a doctor. The lady went on and on in great detail about what medical specialty the daughter would pursue, etc.
Eventually, my wife asked the lady what year of medical school the daughter was in, and the lady just stopped and pointed to her daughter, sitting in a baby carriage next to her.
OK, all the way back on topic.
Speller - in your comments posted June 10 @ 10:01AM, disparaging my religious beliefs and mental capacity, you observed that many atheists had dropped out of the Roman Catholic Church (which I suppose may be true).
I wanted to build upon that thought.
In order to actually live as a Catholic one must observe and deal with Absolute Truth. The teachings or doctrines are not up for "choice."
Fortunately, none of the Dogma or official doctrines of the Catholic Church will in fact hurt anyone, even taken to their extreme possibility. Actually, quite the contrary, if one adheres to Catholic philosophy in their life they will likely do much good.
So, if someone leaves the Catholic Faith and becomes "Atheist" they either found they could not believe in God (I can empathize, I find that my own famous Catholic Faith amounts to merely a grain of sand upon a California beach), OR that they decided NOT to keep on confronting their own decision to live contrary to that which is represented as (demonstrable) Absolute Truth.
OK. This is a fact of life. No problem.
I'm finally at my point.
It seems to me that with Muslims, their religion actually includes "truths" which are in fact false, and worse than that, they have doctrines which lead to, or are, explicitly evil, and do actual harm to others (as well as to the practicioner).
Therefore, it seems to me that many Muslims may well become "Atheists" (e.g. not-Muslims) upon finally getting fully out from under the society or culture or nations which enforce adherence to Mulsim religion under pain of death.
I happen to believe that the Catholic Faith is the True Faith, and I think that religious Muslims, given personal freedom, without threat of death, might eventually find a satisfactory philosophical home within Catholicism (it would be mighty helpful, I'm sure, if we got rid of the homosexual priests and bishops and popes, along with everything else that resulted from the NON-dogmatic Vatican II Council).
This sort of transition would take perhaps decades, generations, centuries, but that is sort of how I see Plan A. progressing, for the distinct benefit of the world.
Speller - I wish to thank you for giving me the opportunity to explore this aspect of my explanation or argument for Plan A. versus Plan B.
And since I've been so "good" at guessing people's backgrounds, I also wonder if my guess that Vitruvius was a former Muslim (and now-famous Atheist) is correct?
Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2006-06-11 9:59:19 AM
I went back and re-read the posts by Vitruvius.
He seems to be arguing for a moderation approach, or more precisely, an opposition to extremism.
Being a freedom loving person myself, I like extremism. I love good salesmen. Down here in LA everybody is a salesman, so full of beans that you spend lots of time just laughing.
But if someone is going to be successful he must be really committed (i.e. "extreme") and hard working.
It is the Rule of Law which allows or I might even say creates the possibility of free exchange of ideas, even extreme ideas, in safety.
This is why the failure of our President Bush to enforce our existing laws prohibiting employers from hiring illegal aliens (Bush is doing this criminal treasonous thing as a political ploy to overwhealm the electorate and make his "plan" a fiat accompli rather than the result of a freely debated and agreed to change in law - which could never happen freely), is a catastrophe which all normal law abiding Americans cannot accept.
President Bush has destroyed the conservative American trust with the, only recently ressurected by Reagan, Republican Party.
If we don't have a rule of law, we cannot hope to have a nation (which Bush wants to destroy anyway and turn into a world government, like all the Rockefeller internationalists moderates who made the Republican Party a distinct and "permanent" minority party of the past).
Speller keeps on criticizing and lamenting the lack of assimilation of Muslims in Canada. First, he must recognize this doesn't happen overnight and second, your Liberal government-history was working just like our Communist "multi-cultural" "diversity" anti-assimilation-to-destruction efforts are proceeding here. Communists wish to divide and pit people against one another on any basis of hate or envy, so that they look only to government for salvation.
I like extremists in the cause of personal liberty (obviously constrainted within the democratically arrived at, and thus a minimal-Constitutional, rule of law).
"Moderation" is a stupid and short-sighted substitute for freedom, which the "clever" people who like "political correctness" and big government think will work better than trusting in free individual citizens bumping into one another with strongly held beliefs.
Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2006-06-11 11:04:33 AM
I have no historic, theological, or cultural connection to muslim or islam, nor am I famous, ergo your guess at the end of your 9:59 post is doubly wrong, Conrad.
I was a founding member of the Libertarian Party of Alberta in 1972. You don't get much more extreme freedomist than that. Then I grew up, and realized that minarchism is better than anarchism. So, since then, I've been a moderate libertarian.
I am not in favour of extreme political correctness, you ignorant cunt. On the other hand, I am in favour of people behaving at least moderately graciously, so please forgive my demonstrative phrasing in the previous sentence. I do agree with your conjecture to the effect that you are full of beans.
As I mentioned, I'm a phenomenological non-deterministic mechanist, which among other things means I think there are absolute truths, but I think they are unknowable, except for one: Existence exists. All other (knowable) truths, including the possibility of the existence of some deity-like god(s), are derived truths (to the extent they are true at all).
And as to the rule of law, which I am generally in favour of (in moderation), I should nevertheless like to remind you of Thomas Jefferson's words: "Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."
I think Mr. Jefferson's proviso applies to what we would commonly call "man's law", and I think it also applies to what you would, erroniously in my opinion, call "god's law".
The extreme optimist argues stridently that the glass is half full. The extreme pessimist argues stridently that the glass is half empty. The moderate engineer realizes that the vessel is simply inappropriately sized for the fluid level.
You may think that moderation is stupid and short-sighted, but next time you are standing under an arch, on a bridge, or down-wind of a refinery, you bloody well better thank your god that successful engineers are moderates.
Speller says he has no doubt. You, Conrad, said at one point above that you were 100% correct, in every degree, on some situation or another. I suspect y'all were simply being rhetorical, but to the extent I am wrong, then you were certainly being the opposite of wise.
Know then thyself, presume not God to scan;
The proper study of mankind is Man.
Placed on this isthmus of a middle state,
A being darkly wise, and rudely great:
With too much knowledge for the skeptic side
With too much weakness for the Stoic's pride,
He hangs between; in doubt to act, or rest.
In doubt to deem himself a god, or beast;
In doubt his mind or body to prefer,
Born but to die, and reasoning but to err;
Alike in ignorance, his reason such,
Whether he thinks too little, or too much:
Chaos of thought and passion, all confused;
Still by himself abused, or disabused;
Created half to rise, and half to fall;
Great lord of all things, yet a prey to all;
Sole judge of truth, in endless error hurled:
The glory, jest, and riddle of the world!
-- From "An Essay on Man" by Alexander Pope
Posted by: Vitruvius | 2006-06-11 2:11:32 PM
People who fail are usually quitters. I was an adopted child with abusive parents who beat me regularly, and twice on Sunday.
They voted staunchly Liberal and at first wanted to adopt negro children. They were talked out of it by the Childrens Aide Society.
Muslims have a thousand year long history of NEVER assimilating into any society. Rather they create Muslim occupied areas which , when they grow large enough, are carved of of the original society and wash rinse and repeat. (For those who haven't studied history and geography I recommend India/Pakistan, the Phillipians, Kosovo, Macedonia,various other Balkan countries, etc.)
The proper study of Man is from the Maker's manual, the Holy Bible.
Posted by: Speller | 2006-06-11 2:21:05 PM
I prefer the Chemical Rubber Company's "Handbook of Chemistry and Physics". Interestingly, it weighs about 12 pounds, which is about how much my bible weighs.
And now I have a question for you Speller. Do you realize that in order to prove wrong your conjecture to the effect that "Muslims have a thousand year long history of NEVER assimilating into any society", all I have to do is find a single muslim that has assimilated into a society?
Posted by: Vitruvius | 2006-06-11 2:46:04 PM
I guess that I'd spend a lot of time laughing if I lived up there too.
Vitruvius, I spoke of "famous" only in the sense of the participants' on this web site willingness to speak of their religious or philosophical beliefs openly and frequently in a manner which I rarely encounter or engage in my workday life. Catholic people of my generation or acquaintance are rarely "evangelical" types and America is a very secular nation yet with a broadly based appreciation for all religious belief. So, speaking a lot about particular religious issues is sort of odd for me and thus I laughingly refer to my "famous Catholicism" and your "famous" Atheism, which evidently was known also to Speller via your past postings.
Your defense of "moderation" with analogy to engineering is contrary to my experience with the extreme rigour and precision I encounter among the engineering legions around here. Perhaps you are confused and misuse the term moderation when you mean conservatism? :- )
Your reference again to the Alexander Pope poem reminds me that it is evidently one of your favorites as it is also a standard in Catholic elementary school English Literature classrooms.
It is healthy and useful debating issues in a provocative aggressive manner, even if it cannot always occur in a completely civil setting.
Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2006-06-11 2:55:56 PM
Vitruvious, I'm sure the CRC has never made a human being.
I'm equally sure that you already believe I'm wrong and that you could never find a Muslim who has assimilated into our society.
If a Muslim assimilated they wouldn't be a Muslim because the Koran forbids them from assimilating.
A true Muslim divides the world into Dar al Islam(the House of Surrender to Allah's will) and Dar al Harb (the House of War where Infidel society exists)
Islam means surrender you know. Surrender to the tenets of the Koran. They cannot befriend infidels, nor be a part of Dar al Harb, which is what assimilating means.
The Koran only permits Muslims to live in Dar al Harb for the purpose of Jihad.
I have no doubt, though, that you could locate one who claimed to be assimilated(taqiyya), and as you don't understand faith, let alone Islam, you would be satisfied and imagine you had proved me wrong.
There will still be a war.
Posted by: Speller | 2006-06-11 3:30:53 PM
As a friend of the United States of America, I don't think your gratuitous swipe at Canada was called for, Conrad.
More interestingly, probably, is that if you were to poll my close friends, I think you would find they would consider my moral perspective of the traditionally catholic view, my ethical perspective of the traditionally protest-ant view, and my intellectual perspective of the traditionally jewish view. But don't discount my appreciation of selected zen, sufi, bahi and other traditions.
Look folks, it is not logically possible for a libertarian to pre-judge any individual. It may be logically possible to post-judge, and therefore discriminate from or against, based on established data, depending on the quality of one's data & logic.
Collectives are a separate matter, because in general there is established data, and in particular it has been normalized to discount outliers. But all individual humans are outliers.
In addition, it is not logically possible to be an ideologue, utopianist, distopianist, or any other kind of intellectual extremest, and still be an engineer.
Engineering, Dean Ford once said in one of my undergraduate classes, is optimization across all constraints. Each constraint dimension must be treated with moderation, else your design fail due to your lack of attention to the other dimensions. Yes engineers are conservative (in the non-political sense), it's just that they're moderately conservative. Occasionaly they are daring, when that's what the job calls for. In politics, that's called centralism. And indeed, I'm a libertarian pragmatist.
Even if one were to convince me that the sky is falling, my response would not be to absquatulate, it would be to build some sky-support columns and beams. In the vernacular, the ultimate solution to every intractable problem is to build a bridge out of it.
The reason it may sometimes seem like I'm right-of-center is that (if I may oversimplify) I'm more afraid of communism and statism than I am of capitalism and the free market, if only because failure of the former systems is naturally easy slippery-slope behaviour for humans, while failure of the latter systems requires particular effort and more complicated fallacies.
Remember, in the "Who Would You Be in 1400 AD Test?" I would be "The Prioress": "You scored 23% Cardinal, 61% Monk, 55% Lady, and 29% Knight. You are a moral person and are also highly intellectual. You like your solitude but are also kind and helpful to those around you. Guided by a belief in the goodness of mankind you will likely be christened a saint after your life is over."
I know, I know, people say, a Libertarian Engineering Prioress? Hey, people are funny. Including muslims. If you gratitously antognize all of them, just because of some extremists, you will lose, or at best pay a much higher price, than if you collaborate with those who are on your side.
 Who Would You Be in 1400 AD?
Posted by: Vitruvius | 2006-06-11 3:34:46 PM
The kind of extremism you reference, is commitment to something good and worthy, where your right to swing your fist, stops before it reaches my face. The kind of extremism the terrorists reference, is that their right to swing their fists goes through the air, to your face, through your head, out the back, and then they can eat your gray matter, if it also suits them to!
Posted by: Lady | 2006-06-11 3:40:46 PM
Your conjecture, Speller, to the effect that "If a Muslim assimilated they wouldn't be a Muslim because the Koran forbids them from assimilating" is only believied by extremist islamists, and extremists like you.
You think that just because you have an extremist interpretation of the bible that all muslims must have an extremist view of the koran. Moderate muslims do not agree with you, nor with the extremist islamists. The war is with extremists like you, not with moderates of any stripe.
But hey, you wanna' keep scoring own goals, be my guest.
Posted by: Vitruvius | 2006-06-11 3:44:04 PM
That there are moderate Muslims is a myth. Vitruvius, you just can't grasp the information. You have no point of reference to understand it from.
Muezzins sing/chant, "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his only prophet.", to call the faithful to prayer five times a day every day of their lives. Every day.
Islam is an extreme "religion' and Mohammed was an extreme person. There are No moderates. That there are moderates is taqiyya from the Muslim side and wishful thinking/politics from our side.
It's as if Ted Bundy or Clifford Olsen started their own religion. But of cource neither had huge extended families, which is another concept most westerners cnnot grasp.
Muslims are from large extended families. They have NO concept of freedom, just as you have no concept of faith, and they come over here understanding, and with their families understanding, that they are here for Jihad.
I recently saw a group of Muslims with a sign that said,
"You call Jihad Terrorism,
Jihad is our Life."
And IT IS.
It is universally understood among Muslims.
One fish said to the other fish, "The water feels funny today."
The second fish said, "What water?"
So it is with Muslims and Jihad.
Posted by: Speller | 2006-06-11 5:22:19 PM
You claim, Speller, that moderate muslims are a myth, and in support you give muezzins as an example, expecting me to casually buy in to the notion that muslim and muezzin are tautologically equivalent, when clearly they are not. I would have thought that a man with an IQ of 170 would have understood that.
Fundamentalists of any religion are extreme. Moderates aren't.
Muslims have the concept of freedom. I have the concept of faith.
You are being silly.
You claim universiality. I suspect the father, the son, and the holy ghost would be less than impressed by your hubris, sir.
Posted by: Vitruvius | 2006-06-11 5:35:19 PM
I did not imply muezzin, who are Muslims, and all Muslims are tautologically equivalent.
I mentioned the call of the muezzin to illustrate that Islam is an extreme one prophet religion and that ALL Muslims are to answer the muezzin's call five times a day every day of their lives. That is an example of how extreme Islam is.
Submission and freedom are polar opposites. Islam means submission.
You, Vitruvius, might say Muslims are free to submit, but they are under a death sentence if they leave Islam.
No, we don't pay a lower cost by collaborating with the Muslims on our side.
We capitulate and pay the ultimate price more quickly by being betrayed into thinking they were on our side, went in fact they weren't.
Posted by: Speller | 2006-06-11 6:13:44 PM
And if I'm not mistaken, Speller, this is the point where I say "I doubt it" and you say "No doubt".
So as the sun sets slowly in the west, as we all strive to take the high road, just remember that (1) if you can't see the ground, or (2) if you're suffering from hypoxia: then your road is too high.
Posted by: Vitruvius | 2006-06-11 6:30:49 PM
Wisdom is the knowledge of right and wrong, coupled with right action.
To be foolish is to not know the difference between right or wrong, or to act as though you don't.
Posted by: Speller | 2006-06-11 6:51:43 PM
This recent arrest of alleged terrorists in Canada is going to cause some people to hurt themselves trying to square the circle of their own thinking. The people I have in mind have elevated "Tolerance" to the highest moral level, and yet it is this very tolerance that seems to attract the hostility of terrorists. What to do? What to do?
Uncritical embracing of all belief systems as being equal is doomed for the basic reason that it can't be true. If all beliefs are created equal, what do you do with the system that says YOUR system is inferior? It's an obvious Gotcha. And if you accept the right of believers to criticize your system, where do you draw the line? And if your system doesn't actually stand FOR anything, what do you draw the line with?
Everyone believes in something. Those who claim to be atheists, or even pantheists for that matter, may deny that there is a God of the universe, but they express beliefs about the true nature of existence and man's role in it that are as coherent as Christianity, only without the omnipotent divine element. Concepts of good and evil, mercy and cruelty, right and wrong exist, but conveniently without any moral consequences, merely natural outcomes. That's fine, but much of the human experience is left unexplained when the explainer's world lacks a divine force.
Me, I am a practising Christian who was a vigorous atheist for many years. I think Christianity explains plenty of things about the world and my place in it. But I am just as convinced that the gap between God and Man is greater than the gap between Man and, say, Cat. My cats have ideas about me, how I think in certain situations, what I can and can't do, how I fill my day. And I in turn have ideas about God, how He thinks in certain situations, what He can and can't do, how He fills his day, or His Eons. And while I am content with the coherence of my ideas about God, they are no more likely to be true than my cats' ideas about me.
So before I go telling someone that they are wrong and I am right about religion, I will think how smart the smartest cat is about me, and I will be silent. But I would expect anyone else who is prepared to act against me in the name of his religion to reconsider and then stop, based on the same thinking. And I applaud those who are vigilant in revealing and ending organized attempts by any persons who, in the name of their God, would seek to impose their cat-brained ideas on the rest of the world.
Posted by: Halfwise | 2006-06-11 8:27:05 PM
In your 6/11/2006 @ 6:34PM post you spoke of a "gratuitous swipe" at Canada from me. I didn't recognize what you were talking about, so I checked back and see that in the penultimate paragraph of my June 10, 2006 @ 9:32AM post, I inadvertently stung Vitruvius with a comment which disparaged the Atheism and Libertarian (i.e. "government" philosophy which will not protect innocent unborn humans) concepts which I do not believe represent the reemerging conservative Canada (ala' Western Standard magazine), because they are just a slight variation from the Atheist-Liberal government philosophy which I think Canada is presently throwing off its back.
Granted, I am a foreigner (somehow, NEVER had that feeling about Canada, born-raised in Detroit) and I'm an infrequent visitor, but I cannot believe that Canada is Atheist.
I cannot believe that Canada is Liberal.
The people I've met in Canada (all in the east) were what I would call "rowdy" conservatives (don't worry, I can take it) in that everyone I met seemed to hate government as much or more than I do (I loved telling and retelling my story of "great achievement" in getting elected to office in America and actually getting rid of a TAX!). Maybe I'm just lucky, and I always ran into the fringe conservative folks, but I've dealt with all kinds of people up there (including government workers, e.g. paying my own tax bills, etc.).
I think Vitruvius takes a cheap shot back at me, by pretending that I took a swipe at Canada, when in fact I aimed at (and evidently hit the tender feelings of someone who wants to pretend that) Atheism and Libertarianism (the selfish-Atheist political governance model) are in fact representative of Canada.
I now recall an inadvertent run-in with Vitruvius where I tried to get somebody to flat out admit or prove that Atheists do not have any philosophical argument to advance the notion of protecting innocent human life, as in the form of an unborn baby.
If a governmental system cannot protect innocent (unborn) human life, and does not even have a theoretical basis for doubts or a concept of opposition to abortion and euthanasia, then I sure as Hell see zero value to that government (and I say, let those guys take complete good care of themselves, I don't even need them as allies, friends, nuthin').
So, Vitruvius, my "gratuitous swipe" was not at a Canada that I believe exists, but rather at a philosophy, which it seems you may embrace and hope that Canada becomes. I think you are wrong now and I hope you are wrong in the future.
I've gotten to know Libertarianism as just aggressive Atheism with a big idea about how to make it so that government does not protect the weak. Who in Hell needs government to protect the strong?
That's why, I'm frustrated that I seem to have so much friction with Speller, who may be right about the impossibility of moderating (my idea is converting) Muslims. I realize good liars can fool you, but if we impliment Plan A. all the way through to the point that people CAN convert from Islam to something else, right in the middle of Baghdad, and NOT get killed for it, and live for years and years openly, without fear, then it will be proven to have been worth the fight.
If Plan A. never delivers that promise of freedom to convert away from Islam, then, Speller will be really proven right.
So, I ask Speller, do you feel confident in your knowledge that if you were able, would you impliment Plan B. right now?
I don't know of any religion other than the screwed up version of Muslim that the Terrorists practice, and Russian Communist Atheism, which would.
So, question number two, Speller, what is your religion called?
Posted by: Conrad-USA | 2006-06-11 8:57:34 PM
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