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Friday, February 24, 2006
Pot, meet kettle
This is a legitimate news story. And the point of view proposed by Mohamed Elmasry, while illiberal, censorious and dangerous, is something that should be debated.
But could someone please help me understand how Elmasry, who has stated publicly that any adult Jew in Israel is a fair target for a terrorist, can find the chutzpah to call for anti-hate laws?
No; scratch that. It is not hard to understand how such an illiberal person could make such a comment. To Elmasry, the laws of our liberal democracy are merely tools that a foolish and soft West grants him to use to undermine our liberal democracy.
No, my question is more properly: Why do David Rider who wrote this story, and most other Canadian journalists, give Elmasry a pass on his past anti-Jewish comments?
Had they been made by anyone other than a Muslim activist, they would have immediately and permanently marked that someone as outside the norms of our civil society -- someone to be shunned. (How many years, for example, did Jacques Parizeau endure being called "disgraced" or "controversial" for his milder comment about "the ethnic vote"?)
What we have here, paradoxically, is a prejudice against Islam. The media are holding Islam's self-proclaimed spokesmen to lower standards of moral conduct, excusing them for horrendous statements and whitewashing their true nature. That is a soft form of bigotry itself, as it implies that Muslims can do no better, that they are by nature less civilized. It is a cousin of the bigotry that says that Arabs and Muslims can't handle/don't want/aren't ready for democracy.
The fact that it strengthens these Muslim radicals, and suffocates true Muslim moderates, is an unhappy side-effect.
Posted by Ezra Levant on February 24, 2006 | Permalink
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Comments
Again,
Why was there no outcry when papers in Quebec printed the cartoons? Why do the Left and muslims only protest when the rag is in Alberta?
Really.
Posted by: BD | 2006-02-24 6:41:07 PM
Ezra,
You never fail to bring up Elmasry's statements in the Michael Coren interview. They were wrong and unjustified, I agree. But you always fail to mention then B'nai Brith member Adam Aptowitzer's defense of Israeli state sponsored terrorism, as part of that very same interview:
"Terror is an option to be used by states in order to prevent deaths of their own citizens and of others," Mr. Aptowitzer said.
Violence begets violence. That is the world we live in.
Posted by: Glass House | 2006-02-24 6:51:22 PM
You are exactly right about Elmasry, Ezra. How on earth the University of Waterloo keeps him employed is beyond me. He has zero credability, yet the media take his inane ramblings seriously, over and over, no matter how silly and contradictory they are.
Pure self-dealing propaganda.
Perhaps his organization should be audited, as they claim to be a charity, to see exactly how much Takrit (religious taxes) from Canadian Muslims pocket books has been sent to the middle east to fund HAMAS 'social programs', aka terrorism?
Millions, I suspect.
As to those previous hateful statements he made on the Michael Coren Show, the Attorney General of Ontario, Michael Bryant, intervened on Elmasry's behalf, abruptly halting the OPP investigation, allowing Dr. Elmasry to get off scott free, accept for a twice edited appology and whitewash by the University of Waterloo brain trust. A cover-up.
Posted by: Mark-Alan Whittle | 2006-02-24 6:51:56 PM
You are exactly right about Elmasry, Ezra. How on earth the University of Waterloo keeps him employed is beyond me. He has zero credability, yet the media take his inane ramblings seriously, over and over, no matter how silly and contradictory they are.
Pure self-dealing propaganda.
Perhaps his organization should be audited, as they claim to be a charity, to see exactly how much Takrit (religious taxes) from Canadian Muslims pocket books has been sent to the middle east to fund HAMAS 'social programs', aka terrorism?
Millions, I suspect.
As to those previous hateful statements he made on the Michael Coren Show, the Attorney General of Ontario, Michael Bryant, intervened on Elmasry's behalf, abruptly halting the OPP investigation, allowing Dr. Elmasry to get off scott free, accept for a twice edited appology and whitewash by the University of Waterloo brain trust. A cover-up.
Posted by: Mark-Alan Whittle | 2006-02-24 6:52:11 PM
Islam is a threat to OUR FREEDOM, SECURITY AND PEACE.
If any laws need to be changed, we need to change our immigration policies to protect our culture from being tainted by Islamism.
We can no longer turn a blind eye to the human rights violations and abuses of NON-muslims in Islamic countries. All democratic Governments and the United Nations must stand up and OUTLAW Islam because Islam commands Muslims to fight and kill Non-muslims. The Koran is all about hate literature and there for it MUST be BANNED.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing"
Do something for your freedom Canada!
http://islamexposed.blogspot.com/
Posted by: fw | 2006-02-24 7:15:03 PM
From the Reuters story: "...Canada's new Conservative government has no plans to broaden the scope of the 36-year-old law."
Well, that's a good start. They should take action to repeal the law altogether. It makes a mockery of 'freedom of expression'.
Idiots like Elmasry, Keegstra, Zundel and Robert should be completely free to make fools of themselves.
Posted by: JR | 2006-02-24 7:26:44 PM
Although the "soft bigotry" you mention certainly plays a role in the willingness of journalists to overlook the racism of men like Elmasry, I think the main reason that MSM journalists find it easier to ignore the virulent anti-Semitism of the Islamists is that its existence is an affront to their understanding of the world.
To genuinely accept that Muslim leaders, not only in Iran and Saudi Arabia but within Europe and North America, believe, after careful and calm consideration, that the entire Israeli nation deserves to be annihilated would require them to entirely re-order their mental furniture. Hell, it might require accepting that Islamofacism is a menace that needs to be fought rather than appeased and pandered to.
Far better to continue believing that these fanatical militants are reasonable folks with legitimate grievances created by American foreign policy, and will reconcile themselves to Western civilization after a few trivial concessions have been made.
I think this bias drives most MSM journalists to experience Elmasry's anti-Semitism as a kind of verbal static at best, at worst a quirky variety of Islamic humor unintelligible to Westerners but doubtless sensible in the context of the occupation of Palestine.
Posted by: Julian Wierenga | 2006-02-24 7:43:48 PM
Apt as always, Ezra.
And as Julian posted above, for the left to call out Elmasry on his hatred would indeed involve a major rearranging of the mental furniture. And it's such crappy furniture; wobbly end tables, stained couch and a dying plant.
They've had no luck destroying a system they resent bitterly, so they're hoping Islam might blow it up.
Posted by: nazz rune | 2006-02-24 8:07:54 PM
fw: I don't want to ban the Koran, cartoons of Muhammed, incredibly idiotic speech, or the Western Standard's coverage of it all.
Posted by: Angela | 2006-02-24 8:14:41 PM
TORONTO (Reuters) - The Canadian government has refused demands from the country's Muslim leaders to expand a law banning hate propaganda so that it covers cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad such as the ones that have sparked worldwide protests. Patrick Charette, press secretary to Justice Minister Vic Toews, told Reuters that Canada's new Conservative government has no plans to broaden the scope of the 36-year-old law. "The provisions covering hate propaganda ... as they stand strike a balance between the freedom of expression and also the rights of minorities to be protected from hatred," Charette said. "It's broad enough right now."
Posted by: Justice | 2006-02-24 8:38:10 PM
The Qur'an incites MURDER, HATERED, AND TERROR. This is COMPLETELY ILLEGAL and the CANADIAN LAWS MUST BE ENFORCED!
Qur’an 47:4 “Strike off the heads of the disbelievers”; and after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.”
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”
Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”
Qur’an 9.29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Sura 3:151 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers for that they joined companions with Allah for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the fire; and evil is the home of the wrong-doers!
Sura 8:60 Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power including steeds of war to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides whom ye may not know but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid unto you and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
Qur’an 4:101 “The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe.”
Posted by: fw | 2006-02-24 8:50:49 PM
Ezra: Some guest-posts at "Daimnation!" further to your line of thought:
"Why are faith-based politics wrong for Christians yet fine for Muslims?"
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/005720.html
"Are.You.Canadian?"
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/005779.html
"Afstan: one of the usual suspects opposes Canada's military mission"
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/005845.html
Mark
Ottawa
Posted by: Mark Collins | 2006-02-24 9:25:44 PM
Ezra, to quote from iRobot
"that my friend is the right question"
Now you're on the right trail, Elmasry is a hyprocrite, as are a few other Muslim leaders in this country.
Posted by: tomax | 2006-02-24 9:31:03 PM
In present-day Canada the apparently respectable reporters who give a free pass to such comments as Elmasry's, and who make similar statements themselves, are almost entirely from the political left. In the supposedly enlightened leftist world-view demagogues such as Elmasry are considered to be members of the put-upon, long-suffering "ethnosphere", and as such are forgiven for any violence and intemperate thought, which are considered to be the fault of the West, and Israel.
Although those on the left would disavow any statement suggesting that civilians -- women, children, the elderly -- are appropriate targets for murder and mutiliation, they make a pointed exception in cases where those civilians are Jewish, and live in Israel.
Although insulting "ethnics" is strictly off-limits in Canada -- witness Parizeau -- the left's specious, blithely floated "truth" that Jews are the oppressors of "ethnics" and the poor allows good Canadian multi-culti values to go off-leash, as it were, while the keepers look the other way, towards the oblivious, with an innocent look on their faces.
The credibility that the left affords the likes of Mohamed Elmasry suggests nothing less than anti-Semitism by proxy. If that seems a stretch, consider -- seriously consider -- what the reaction of our commentariat and judiciary would be if comments similar to Elmasry's were directed not at Jews, but at Arabs, Chinese, Mexicans or some other group.
When someone of Elmasry's ilk gets straight-faced consideration in our media, it's clear that something profoundly unenlightened is scraping along just below the surface in our nation's cultural life.
Posted by: EBD | 2006-02-24 9:39:21 PM
The goat had it coming...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4748292.stm
Posted by: Guido | 2006-02-24 9:41:47 PM
fw is right, moslems are by nature less civilized. There is no such thing as a 'moderate' moslem. That's like saying a moderate murderer or a moderate rapist. It's not possible. Read the koran and hadith. You can start at http://www.prophetofdoom.net/
Posted by: John | 2006-02-24 9:45:53 PM
A cartoon started this...or did it really?
Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City and kill thousands of innocent civilians:. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building, because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia....a Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims in Afghanistan destroy artwork and sculptures thousands of years old because they depict a human face. No Muslim outrage.
A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish a few cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.
In retaliation they riot and set fire to embassies and consulates and threaten massive retaliation.
Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Dead Americans in New York City. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims ....no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.
When does the rest of the world have the right to be outraged and say enough is enough?
Posted by: Western Canadian | 2006-02-24 9:54:36 PM
There are many moderate Muslims in Canada. The West's problem with violent Islamists is caused by our political left who cede ground to them and make excuses for them.
John, you are full of shit. You are a prurient opportunist. Piss off.
Posted by: EBD | 2006-02-24 10:07:42 PM
WC: War certainly is not fun, I don't think you should just blame the Muslims for all the terroist attacks taken out in history. Remember there were two minor bombings in Japan in August 45 that were called what ? strategic. When the enemy does a terrible act it is called a terrorist attack, when our side does some killing or neutralizing we call it some other really nice name like operation freedom. What started this whole cartoon thing is the post 911 broken record player thought process that you and alot of others have that Islam is the root cause of this. You know, I could pick up a AK 47 tomorrow with a Bible and start worshiping both in a few years a could get a few hundred followers together then do something really bad ... are all Christians at fault because of this?
Posted by: Colin | 2006-02-24 10:14:30 PM
EBD: There currently are no problems with violent Islamists in Canada, if so please let me know what distrubences and distructions have been made by them. The political left is ceding ground now, are we at war now and the ground we are ceding is neutral ground or is it ground that we a just giving back to them after a fairly large victory?
Posted by: Colin | 2006-02-24 10:22:26 PM
fear met with appeasement. welcome to canada after 13 years of liberal ostrich politics. your suggestion that islamic society is not ready for democracy just might have some traction. they aint nothing like we is over here is they? their avowed destruction of israel goes deep into their autocratic culture. with the fundamental theocracy taking hold (anyone remember the ayatollah's iran) there's little if no hope they'll welcome our decadence anytime soon.
Posted by: Ottawa Core | 2006-02-24 10:36:34 PM
Colin, I refered to "the West's" problems with violent Islamists. I'm sure you are aware of the murders of Theo van Gogh and Pim Fortuyn, and the fatwas put on writers and artists, including Rushdie and the Danish cartoonists, and that certain female Islamic activists in Europe are under 24 hour protection required by Islamic activists who have petitioned for kinder treatment of women.
In Canada, of course, we have had the spectre of publishers being afraid to publish innocuous line drawings which were certainly less offensive in intent than many published cartoons which commented on Catholicism, etc.
The recent Compas poll which was brought to our attention on this site and elsewhere revealed that seven out of ten journalists felt the cartoons should have been published, and that fear was the motivating factor in not publishing them. I consider that to be evidence that we have a problem with violent Islamists.
Posted by: EBD | 2006-02-24 10:38:24 PM
Which begets the question why does Mr. Levant conflate Islamic bigotry with the obvious fact that democracy is not transplantable? By stating the obvious, that democracy evolved from an isolated homogeneous group of northwestern Christian Europeans, who developed a culture of individualism, and rule of law founded upon outgroup altruism (trust of strangers) that has really only been succesful amongst the offspring of those originating peoples, is bigotry. And as Lawrence Auster writes in Frontpage for many Jews 'bigotry is indivisible'. And thus he touches upon the real fear of those who hold Mr. Levant's position.
"First of all, as crazy as it may sound, there is something that many American Jews fear in their heart of hearts even more than they fear Moslem anti-Semitism, and that is white Christian anti-Semitism.
... Jews’ risible obsession with non-existent evangelical Protestant anti-Semites, combined with their obliviousness to actual mass murdering Islamist anti-Semites (whom, moreover, the Jews’ favored immigration policies have allowed into this country) is an amazing phenomenon that we should not dismiss as simply a bizarre ethnic idiosyncrasy. It expresses, rather, a central preoccupation of a significant number of Jews, namely their corrosive apprehension of what they think the goyim might one day do to them—a fear they entertain despite the fact that, apart from some social exclusions and other ethnic prejudices that existed up to the end of World War II, Jews have never faced serious anti-Semitism from the white Christian majority in this country.
... Now, when Jews put together the idea that “all bigotry is indivisible,” with the idea that “any social prejudice or exclusion directed against Jews leads potentially to Auschwitz,” they must reach the conclusion that any exclusion of any minority group, no matter how alien it may be to the host society, is a potential Auschwitz.
So there it is. We have identified the core assumption that makes many liberal and neoconservative Jews keep pushing relentlessly for mass immigration, even the mass immigration of their mortal enemies. As these Jews see it, any immigration restrictions against Moslems would release a latent ethnocentrism in the white American majority that would then turn instantly against the Jews. To state this thought process in the baldest terms, these Jews believe that if philo-Semitic white gentiles exclude Jew-hating Moslems from America, it would lead those same gentiles to commit another Jewish Holocaust."
As a spokesman for the Danish People's Party suggests,
"The only thing that can truly fight extreme Islamism is by closing the border, period," Soeren Espersen, the party's foreign policy spokesman, said in a recent interview in his office, decorated with an Israeli flag, ancient maps of Denmark and a framed photograph of Israeli paratroopers.
"We very strongly recommend tight immigration laws because we do not want to see a majority of Muslims in this country and then run the risk of our democracy ending in a dictatorship with (Islamic) Sharia laws."
Posted by: DJ | 2006-02-24 10:47:36 PM
EZRA, I am having problems understanding what it is you are ranting about ...But if I put your spin through my word distiller it reads this.... Canadian IMAM is BAD and is Getting BADER. I am curiuos why you continue to promote your own bigotry as well add a sense of urgency to having things resolved with Mohamed E as soon as possible OR ELSE this will some how "Strengthen Muslim Radicals and Sufficate the Muslim Moderates". Since you can now quantatatively determine suffocation of Moderate muslim what exactly is that? OH and How Strong are those Really Strong Radicals. You seem to have the recipe right down for Disaster. I know it is all doom and gloom for you but look on the bright side all this fear mongering keeps the readers like jethro and company coming back to post their anti Islam rants and bottom line All this must add up to some extra profits for your MAG.
Posted by: Colin | 2006-02-24 10:51:47 PM
>>"Islam is a threat to our freedom, security and peace"<<
i came onto this website hoping to close some cultural bridges and gaps. Much to my disappointment, i find that the majority of individuals here have formed hard-and-fast opinions to which they will stick to come hell or high water. i am a Muslim, and i am not a terrorist, i practice my faith but -- contrary to what so many individuals have posted in this post -- i am not hell-bent on destroying Canadian "values" or "norms". My dream ISN'T to wreck "your" (our?) country. My parents chose to immigrate to Canada and every day we are grateful that we have the opportunity to worship here as we choose, dress as we choose, to participate in the political arenas if we choose. i am grateful to this country that has given not just citizenship to my family and to myself, but it has given us a home - it has given us the opportunities to further our education and to improve ourselves as human beings. i know full well that i would not be granted the same freedoms in my 'native' country. Folks, most Muslims have the same dreams as yourselves - most of us just worry about the same regular problems most of you have - we worry about the bills, we worry about the environment, and yes we even prayed that Canada would win gold in hockey. It's extremely easy to look for differences and to categorize each individual into a particular slot. Let's realize that Muslim or atheist, Buddhist or Catholic, we're all on the same bloody planet and we should try to close cultural chasms rather than enlarging them.
Posted by: nadia | 2006-02-24 10:57:53 PM
oh, and by the way, Ezra Levant makes a point about "democracy" in his original post. If he (and his supporters, many of whom are to be found here) endorse democracy, let us see them pushing for the U.S. to invade Saudi Arabia and topple Saudi Arabia's monarchical dictatorship. If it can happen in Iraq, then why not push for democracy in Saudi Arabia - a country notorious for its human rights abuses? Is E. Levant in favour of encouraging democracy against the oil-rich, pro-US Saudi Arabian dictators?
Posted by: nadia | 2006-02-24 11:04:29 PM
EBD - I do realize this things did occur and it is unfornunate but a whole relgion cannot be responsible for a few Loonies, I know you have explained this all to me before why this is different so don't bother if you care. My belief is that the Justice system of each country should deal with them as their laws provide, thousands of murders take place everyday and that is how they are dealt with. To promote religion as a reason why people are killing is very dangerous. You are correct some people have said and committed very nasty things and they should be held responsible. They should not be dealt with as if they were Islamic and Broke the law, Catholic and broke the Law, Black and Broke the law, this will only promote sectarian violence.
Posted by: Colin | 2006-02-24 11:13:24 PM
All you Muslim-phobes out there need to read this by a Jewish columnist: http://www.thejewishweek.com/top/editletcontent.php3?artid=4825
Posted by: nadia | 2006-02-24 11:17:35 PM
I myself have often wondered why Ezra Levant does so little to further democracy in Saudi Arabia. I expected so much more out of him.
Posted by: EBD | 2006-02-24 11:19:54 PM
Nadia,
I personally know 2 Muslims who are good people and I like. But they are really only Muslims by name.
I welcome good people to Canada.
I don't have a problem with Muslims as long as they don't try to take away our freedom EVEN IF IT IS INSULTING.
The problems the whole world is having is because of ISLAM. What the Qur'an says is very clear.
We know that there are Muslims only by name and they do not follow the Qur'an:
[5.51]: "O you who believe do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever, amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah (the name of their God) does not guide the unjust people."
My country is Canada, and my religion is FREEDOM.
Posted by: fw | 2006-02-24 11:28:35 PM
EBD - I think you are getting close to a Cartoon award like ET, Just because you love belittling people.
Posted by: Colin | 2006-02-24 11:28:59 PM
Nadia, all points valid and accepted. Just tell me one thing, why does the moderate Muslim not stand up and strongly denounce the radical element? Your national leader among them. Why? You will continue to be tarred with the same brush unless you as a moderate reject the wahabi radicals. Their funding of mosques in Calgary and Vancouver do not help your plea for acceptance. Bye the way, is the wahabi branch not from Saudi Arabia?
Posted by: Western Canadian | 2006-02-24 11:29:04 PM
Colin, are you still on something?
Posted by: Western Canadian | 2006-02-24 11:33:27 PM
Hey it called anti racist pills I take two a day but unfornunaely the side effects make me sit and try to talk some sense into people like you.
Posted by: Colin | 2006-02-24 11:36:48 PM
FW, Thanks for your response. At least it is a mature one, contrary to what i have recvd in the past from certain individuals here.
In your post, you state that your problem is with "Islam". FW, my purpose in this website is not to convert you, nor to educate others about Islam; i am not going to give you an "Islam 101" lecture. i am here simply because i want non-Muslims to understand that not all Muslims are terrorists; not all Muslim males beat their wives, and CERTAINLY not all us Muslim females are suppressed, repressed, and oppressed. You can pull quotes left and right from the Quran to prove almost anything in the world - depending upon your personal interpretation. Some, for example, will argue that the Quran advocates an inferior status for women. i argue, and passionately believe, just the opposite. Two people can interpret a verse in a very different, selective manner - this is not exclusive to the Quran, as anyone familiar with both the Old and New Testaments may verify. i try to pray five times a day, i fast during Ramadan, i celebrate Eid, and i regard ALL Jews and Christians as my cousins in faith and give them unconditional respect - this is what Islam teaches me: "O humankind, We have created you male and female and made you nations and tribes, so that you might come to know one another" (49.13). Your post reinforces a popular misperception that Islam is anti-Jewish; this is a bizarre belief in light of the fact that the Quran repeatedly refers to Jews and Christians as "People of the Book", according respect to their scriptures (Bible and Torah). As a child, i was taught by my Muslim teachers to give as much respect to the Torah and the Bible simply because these were the sacred texts of fellow-monotheists. "Surely the believers and the Jews, Christians and Sabians whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and whoever does right, shall have his reward with his Lord and will neither have fear nor regret" (2:62).
My religion is Islam, my country is Canada, and i love both dearly.
Posted by: nadia | 2006-02-24 11:41:39 PM
Nadia, the fact that a Jewish publication reaches out to Muslims does not surprise me, nor that the writer considered the actions of embassy burners, fatwah issuers and so on as being the responsibility of the west and the cartoonists; I am past being surprised by the broad spectrum of "jewish thought".
But I don't think it serves your end in any way to send Muslim-phobes, as you put it, to the site. No danger in doing so, obviously, it's just that when Miller describes portrayals of Muhammad as "inconceivably offenseive" and uses words like "descecration...defilement..a slap in the face" he is coming from the same set of assumptions as the Muslim-phobes -- that Muslim's can't control their reactions.
He might prescribe different remedies, but the underlying, tacit beliefs expressed in the whole "don't inflame them" approach are that Muslims are not educated, that they cannot control their reactions, that they cannot discuss sensibly the intersections of faith and politics, of or Islam with other faiths, and that satire, comment and investigations are beyond them. I personally and from experience don't believe those things to be true.
Do you really think Muslim-phobes need to have those false ideas reinforced?
Posted by: EBD | 2006-02-24 11:42:33 PM
>I don't think you should just blame the Muslims for all the terroist attacks taken out in history. Remember there were two minor bombings in Japan in August 45 that were called what ? strategic. When the enemy does a terrible act it is called a terrorist attack, when our side does some killing or neutralizing we call it some other really nice name like operation freedom.<
You make comments like this then expect yourself to be taken seriously? You have to be the biggest moron this blog or any other has ever seen. Wow. You love these people and their way of life why don't you go live with them for awhile. Believe me, you won't be missed.
Posted by: deepblue | 2006-02-24 11:42:33 PM
Western Canadian,
With all due respect, who are you calling my "national leader"? Dr. Mohammed Elmasry is not a "national leader" of Muslim Canadians, whatever he may or may not state. FYI there is no religious hierarchy within Islam. There is no hierarchical structure within Islam to which you can point to and state 'such-and-such an individual is speaking on behalf of ALL Muslims'. There is no concept of a religious representative - such as the Vatican for eg. Elmasry is the head of one of several Muslim organizations in North America. From MY perspective as a Muslim Cdn, he occupies no special position - he is one of many who CLAIMS to speak on behalf of Muslims. Most of my family & friends haven't even heard of him, and couldn't pick his face in a crowd if their lives depended on it. i couldn't either for that reason. i don't even know what he looks like and i consider myself a pretty devout Muslim. So - sorry to point this out, but you are completely wrong if you believe that Elmasry is my "national leader".
Posted by: nadia | 2006-02-24 11:46:39 PM
FW - I guess you have not been medicated today, How can you say in one line that you do not have a problem with muslims and then in the next you say all the problems of the world are because of Islam -LOOK go get your Little white suit GO see your little buddies up in provost... GET some marshmellows and roast your little weinies on your burning cross and leave you Islamic hate somewhere else.
Posted by: Colin | 2006-02-24 11:50:22 PM
I never said any where take me seriously, I am just stating facts. thanks for the Moron compliment, I have lived in few 3rd world gun toting countries, - Have you ever been away from Mommy yet!
Posted by: Colin | 2006-02-25 12:00:45 AM
Nadia, thanks for the clarification, that's from the MSM. Until now I have yet to hear anyone explain that and I wonder why the moderates, once again, don't speak up, loudly?
Posted by: Western Canadian | 2006-02-25 12:04:44 AM
Colin, If you were not high on you're anti-depressants, you would have understood what I wrote.
Here is a recap: I said that I personally knew 2 Muslims.....BUT THEY ARE NOT PRACTICING ISLAM!!!
They are ONLY Muslim by NAME.-- they can join us for a beer, party, etc. In fact, one of them is actually complaining about ISLAM and tells me how messed up ISLAM is.
To be clearer next time, I will call the believers of ISLAM -- ISLAMISTS --.
Posted by: fw | 2006-02-25 12:15:38 AM
Colin , I knew you and Paul and the rest of the guys at the Red Deer Motor lodge had something planned . I`ve seen how dangerous you guys can be with a keyboard ; please put away the AK47s.
Posted by: daveh | 2006-02-25 12:26:50 AM
Colin - My oh my, did mommy leave the "nanny lock" off the computer again? The day I engage a half-wit kool-aid drinker like you will be the day hell freezes over. I wouldn't give you the time of day in any other forum, why would I do it here?
Although it is your right I question the wisdom of the usual great posters here as to why you waste your time with this guy? Unlike terrorism if you ignore this flake he will just disappear.
Not only is he a racist, hateful bigot, and a complete fool, perhaps his greatest weakness is he is an incredibly poor cartoon artist.
Posted by: deepblue | 2006-02-25 12:30:35 AM
The Cdn Muslims who are "moderate" speak for a slice of about 0.5% of the world's total of 1.3 billion Muslims; so there's some perspective on iSLAM.
I don't have the wrong idea about iSLAM unless bin Laden also does and he has ten million iSLAMic followers! So do the Saudis and 22 Arab nations. My idea of iSLAM is derived from those who accurately call me 'infidel.'
Medinan iSLAM = all in nice, "people of the book", religion of peace, blah blah Ginger, blah blah. This iSLAM is used to curry favour and lower the infidel's guard. This is the iSLAMic posture of compliance when iSLAM is unable to control.
Meccan iSLAM = the iSLAM in force since the time of Muhammed; the iSLAM of war and conquest seeing the world in two realms: the realm of iSLAM (dar iSLAM) and the realm of war (Dar al-harb), all which is not iSLAMic.
Posted by: wharold | 2006-02-25 12:31:45 AM
Colin , please don`t stop posting . You are starting to grow on me . That anti- racist pill zinger , was a good one.
Posted by: daveh | 2006-02-25 12:37:23 AM
Nadia:
I thank you very much for your comments and insight for us who have doubts about Islam. I am one who thinks what is going on in the middle East is a tragedy beyond comprehension, BUT, as a previous poster has asked you: Why no outrage over terrorist actions? I think its a very valid question, and I honestly believe the media would love to exploit those sentiments. Your "one voice" would be as loud as a thousand in North America but the defening silence from moderate muslims is troubling. I think most of us 'want to believe' but we have heard nothing to make us change our perceptions on the violent nature of your faith.
I am thankful for families such as yours that come to our country to live in peace and under our laws. I am still un-convinced that you speak for the majority of Canadian Muslims, however, as the muslim community is still not speaking out. The only way that we will be sure that you speak the truth, is when its proclaimed loudly and often from every city and town in Canada, and the west, that violence and terror will not be tolerated in the name of Islam, and steps will be taken to oust those that preach anti-semitism and militantcy throught the west AND that those that speak of or support violence are marginalized within the muslim community wherever it occurs.
Actions speak louder than words.
Nadia, I am not placing this responsibility on your shoulders alone, but it has to start from within your faith, not from external sources.
Posted by: arctic_front | 2006-02-25 2:05:22 AM
Exactly....
Actions speak louder than words
Islamists' actions has exposed the truth about the Qur'an.
It commands Islamists to fight and kill infidels (Non-muslims, atheists, etc.). It's all in the Qur'an!.
We have to educate ourselves and know about Islams hidden agenda and ambitions to destroy us (infidels). Also beware of Taqquiya (Deception to infiltrate and destroy infidels)
http://www.amberpawlik.com/IslamonTrial.html
http://jihadwatch.org/
Now, off course not every Muslim is going to follow the demented Qur'an. the individual Muslims' degree of faith in the religion varies and hence you get the "non-practicing" Muslim, the "moderate" muslim, the Islamic terrorists and so on. They ALL have the same Qur'an. The difference is how much of it they practice!
This is why we can see some Muslims who befriend us infidels although the Qur'an commands Muslims not to take Jews, Christians or infidels for friends:
[5.51]: "O you who believe do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever, amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah (the name of their God) does not guide the unjust people."
We need to stop being naive and blind. See for yourselves how they treat Non-muslims in Islamic countries.
We need to stand up for our freedom and for human rights. It's our responsibility to our children's future and humanity.
Posted by: fw | 2006-02-25 3:09:48 AM
Exactly.... Actions speak louder than words
Islamists' actions has exposed the truth about the Qur'an. It commands Islamists to fight and kill infidels (Non-muslims, atheists, etc.). It's all in the Qur'an!.
...Colin , I knew you and Paul and the rest of the guys at the Red Deer Motor lodge had something planned . I`ve seen how dangerous you guys can be with a keyboard ; please put away the AK47s.
We never do use or have any need any AK47 for the pen in Canada is still mightier than the sword.
The city of Red deer is something you might miss if you blink your eyes while driving on the Highway. My favorite Albertan hang out is anything west of the city of Cochrane, Alberta.
I also do appreciate the Muslims in Canada using their free speech right against those Danishes as well, it has now made even more Canadians to see the cartoons and to also personally understand now how bad the Muslim religion really is too.
I have lived, worked both in the East and in the West of Canada too and there are even the good and bad persons in both regions now still too.
I was shocked when I personally had realized about 20 years ago in Calgary that while most Canadians were too busy working paying the tax dollars, many various bad cultural minorities were busy lobbying the Canadian governments and evben next making indecent changes. So Now I really do speak loudly even more to the right parties for all Canadians good benefit too and not for just the most vocal minorities, cultural, ethnic groups.
Posted by: paul | 2006-02-25 5:08:34 AM
Elmasry gets a pass because standing for what is right is too chancey. We might actually have to fight and that would be especially un-Canadian.
We seem to have become the nation of Neville Chamberlain.
Posted by: Frank Q. | 2006-02-25 6:25:39 AM
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