The Shotgun Blog
Tuesday, February 14, 2006
Daryl Cagle has assembled an impressive collection of cartoons about the reaction to the dreaded cartoons. For a sample of how cartoonists from around the world have been responding to this absurd situation, click here.
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Dear Deep blue
you said ( you will rampagel, you will burn mosques , you beheaded afew people,rape sister of whome?)
now i mad sure that you are real christian
Posted by: Dr.mohamed | 2006-02-19 10:16:43 AM
that is the bible http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,564-1812166,00.html
Posted by: kat koot bahaim | 2006-02-19 10:17:17 AM
Mesh head: You see how insulting you are, but i forgive you, because you are just trying to make a point. You won't see any Christians hacking off Muslim heads, or burning buildings, but i hope you realize how much worse your video is than those simple cartoons...
Mohammed was a supposed prophet, whereas Jesus is our Lord. Muslims worship Mohammed, idolize him apparently, but do not consider him to be God, Jesus is God for us Christians. So yes I am offended, congratulations...(I actually didn't watch the video, though. Sorry.)
Posted by: MarkAlta | 2006-02-19 10:20:33 AM
Dr. Mohammed; SARCASM, look it up. That's what Deep Blue was using...referring to the 3rd World Muslim reaction to being offended.
Posted by: MarkAlta | 2006-02-19 10:24:30 AM
Why get offended muslem did not puplich that site ,it is a christian site.Muslem respct all the
propnets.but christian respect nobody .
Posted by: mesh mesh ia 7meer | 2006-02-19 10:30:21 AM
deepblue: "I shall be forced to begin a rampage!!"
A rampage sounds like just the thing to chase away the mid-winters blahs.
When and where? What flags should I just happen to have on hand? Whose death and destruction are we calling for? I need details - those placards don't write themselves, you know.
Sheesh, who knew there was so much work in planning a spontaneous rampage?
Posted by: Kathryn | 2006-02-19 10:39:10 AM
I have no use for any religion. I reject them all, but if you believe in god i'm happy for you. However, my life and the life of my friends my family and fellow citizens are not a risk to terrorist Jews, Christians, Hindus or Bhuddists...
Attacking other religions such as Christianity is all about what? Are you saying that because of what Christians did hundreds of years ago, humanity should accept the terrorism of Islam we are victims of today. So we should ignore the Islamic terrorists? That's absurd! The violence of others in history does not mitigate the violence of Islam today.
Where are all the Christian terrorists, or Jewish terrorists that are killing others because of what their religious doctrine is teaching them, and instructing them to do?
When was the last time you heard of a Christian, packing himself with explosives, then walking on to a bus to evicerate himself, taking innocent women and children with him, simply because they didn't follow his beliefs? When was the last time you heard of a platoon of Jews hijacking planes full of non-Jews with boxcutter knives? When was the last time you heard of an agnostic planting a bomb at a discotech, to blow to smitherines hundreds of innocent people, simply because they didn't follow his non-beliefs?
Where are the Biblical verses that inspire Christians to kill non-Christians? Where are the examples of Christians committing terrorists acts because of what the Bible is teaching them? In contrast to this the Quran is replete with teachings that inspire its followers to kill "infidels" (unbelievers).
Posted by: Doug | 2006-02-19 11:07:19 AM
It is not important for me to know that you have no religon.Caus even If you are christian ,you are the same like hinu or buddah belivers.caus you worship man.
That is not important to me but.....we have to respect each others.who are the terrorists.
1- A man who fight back against somebody rape his land in palastine.
Noway who is now fighting for oil ,killing abusing
Open your mind.Islam is religon of peace but if you you wanna kill my kids ,I cant let you free.but your jesus said if i smack your face give me the other side and....
look in Iraq,Palistine,Afganistan,Chechnia,alot and alot of muslim killed under your lovely cross
funny you,your belive that all the bible is good anytime and for educating kids.what you gonna teach your kids in song of songs ,nudity and violence
so dont till me it is old time.no it is your god
ordering his people .shame on you
think about lamb worshiper
By the way I challenge any Idiot to prove that jesus(peace be with him) said am god worship me
Posted by: Eng.Osama | 2006-02-19 11:25:23 AM
Free speech in Canada debate
U of T paper defends publication of cartoon But Muslim Students' Association calls illustration of Jesus and Prophet Muhammad kissing `gravely offensive'
Feb. 19, 2006. 07:41 AM Toronto Star A student newspaper at the University of Toronto will not be pressured into pulling a cartoon from their website of the Prophet Muhammad and Jesus kissing despite demands from the Students' Administrative Council and the Muslim Students' Association, its editor says. "The cartoon is a sort of Canadian statement on religious tolerance," said Nick Ragaz, managing editor of The Strand, the student newspaper of Victoria University at U of T. "This is not an act of hate," he said. "It's controversial, yes, but it's no attack," said Ragaz. "We will not be pulling the issues from the stands or withdrawing the cartoon from our website," said Ragaz, who has received a demand from the Students' Administrative Council (SAC) to do so. "We hope, and this is our intention in publishing the cartoon, to provoke reasoned considerate debate and dialogue about these issues both on campus and, I guess now, off campus," said Ragaz. The Strand is being supported by the president of Victoria University and the Victoria University student council. "The editorial in this issue of The Strand provokes and invites discussion, not intolerance," Paul Gooch, president of Victoria University, wrote in an online statement published on the U of T website yesterday. The Strand editorial cartoon, "however offensive to some members of our community, could not be characterized as a violation of the Human Rights Code, the Criminal Code, or the applicable University policies at Vic or U of T," wrote Gooch. "The decision to print the cartoon was carefully considered in an effort to advocate tolerance," Brian Clow, president of the Victoria University Students' Association that represents 4,000 U of T undergrad students, said yesterday in a press release. The Strand cartoon appeared last Wednesday next to an editorial "addressing the debate about whether to publish the Danish cartoons and the cartoon in question," said Ragaz. The satirical Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad published in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten last fall have incited violence in some parts of the world.
Posted by: Belinda | 2006-02-19 11:28:04 AM
the fastest grawing religon
Posted by: kat koot | 2006-02-19 11:43:35 AM
Has anyone noticed that the author of the uniform 'Islam is the greatest' theme, is, despite the various pseudonyms - the same person? Check out the address of the name. The same. (kat koot, eng.osama, mesh mesh). I would suspect a junior college student.
Posted by: ET | 2006-02-19 11:55:36 AM
JAKARTA, Indonesia (AP) - Christians also have become targets. Pakistani Muslims protesting in the southern city of Sukkur ransacked and burned a church Sunday. That incident came a day after Muslims protesting in the Nigerian city of Maiduguri attacked Christians and burned 15 churches in a three-hour rampage that killed at least 15 people. Some 30 other people have died during protests over the cartoons that erupted about three weeks ago. In Jakarta, about 400 people marched to the heavily fortified U.S. mission in the centre of the city, behind a banner reading "We are ready to attack the enemies of the Prophet." Protesters throwing stones and brandishing wooden staves tried to break through the gates. They set fire to U.S. flags and a poster of U.S. President George W. Bush and smashed the windows of a guard outpost before dispersing after a few minutes. The U.S. Embassy called the attacks deplorable, describing them as acts of "thuggery."
and I still do not see Peter MacKay MP or our PM S Harper making an statement on behalf of the the abused Christians.
Is Peter MacKay next going to join the Liberal party too? Like his friends..
Posted by: paul | 2006-02-19 12:01:16 PM
to The SMART ET
what is your problem am just atempting to prove the trinity is one .like the father and the son the holymesh mesh .it is Eng.osama and katkoot and anything else.lol
It is just my brothers want to answer like me.so they use my E mail so dont try to be smart
Posted by: Eng.osama | 2006-02-19 12:27:03 PM
That's too bad, Eng.Osama, katkoot,mesh mesh- that you are all clones of each other. Don't you have any individuality? Are you just puppets of each other? That's sad.
As for the trinity - check out the difference between the Arian and Athanasian interpretations of the Trinity. The Arian denies their homogeneity. So- isn't it possible for you, in your three versions (sorry, I don't believe the Three Brothers story), to establish some individual thought processes?
Posted by: ET | 2006-02-19 12:57:00 PM
I turned my back for a few hours and you're fighting again. Are you there dr. mohamed? Maybe you can talk some sense into this little punk who's using three different names. If enough of the wrong people find out what he's been saying about them, he's in for a good old fashioned western ass kicking. Did you ever wonder why people seem so peace loving in canada? It's because when we finally get pushed far enough to push back, we are really nasty. It's why you never saw Gordy Howe involved in a hockey fight. He only had to prove himself a couple of times, and the rest was history. When the allies marched through Europe toward Germany, there was almost always a bunch of Canadians at the front of the line.
So from a position of strength I'm asking you nicely to try and get along. We won't tolerate what happened in France, but on the other hand we are not as prejudiced as the French. Immigrants are well treated in this country, and have very few obstacles. It isn't perfect, but ask most immigrants here or in the US and most will say the are happy to be here.
When the cartoon thing blows over you don't want to wake up and realize you've done something that people won't forgive and forget.
Posted by: dan | 2006-02-19 1:36:04 PM
you said it is freedom of speach, i can not prevent the guy from saying what he is saying
i can only and i gurrantee if you can stop some peole here from saying bad words about muslims and our profit because simply people here use double standard they remember the violenece coming from us but not the violenece coming from you, it is worst dan when violenece and wars and invasion coming from well organized civilzed countries because simply it means that is the rule not the exception
and actually you do not have to say from the strenght or the weekenes what ever!!! we are here are equalss canadian citizens we are proude of free society but please without unrespect for the others,
this newpapers starts that , and although you will not find any news papers from islamic world publishing cartoon of jesus whjile he abusing prisnors in iraq or guantanamou , neither flying with jet and pumping civilians in iraq and aphganistan
the anger of cartoons beacsue we apprecaite and love our religion and we love jesus and maria and even moses although the israeli state ocuupied and made genocydes in all our land
dan let it go and i will let it go because all of us now losers
we should know the common things that strenghth our relations and our society
Posted by: Dr.mohamed | 2006-02-19 1:51:33 PM
Dr. Mohamed - the Muslims of Nigeria just burnt and killed 16 Christians, inside churches, and then destroyed several churches, just yesterday. Their only crime was being Christian.
When will you ever admit that Islam can do WRONG? As long as you think Islam is infalliable, and Prophet Muhammad is infalliable, which he is not, then you will NEVER understand civilizatin and humanity. So keep on denying.
Do you have the integrity and courage to FACE the TRUTH? That your religion can do horrible things? Or is it your false-pride is so strong that you will deny the evidence? I can understand y our lack of dignity. But I will never understand lies and taqqiya and falsehoods in order to cover up for that lack of dignity.
Now to expose your lies (taqiyya):
The invasion of Iraq saved tens of thousands of lives. Saddam was killing Iraqis at the rate of 15,000 or more a year. There has been far less casualties, and guess what - the ISLAMISTS are RESPONSIBLE for 75% of the deaths. In the past 12 months, the ISLAMISTS are RESPONSIBLE for 95% of the deaths. The US never targets civilians. While your Islamists drive a propane truck to the marketplace and blow it up killing 120 innocents, and burning and maiming another 1000. SHAME ON YOUR RELIGION TO DENY FACTS, Dr. Mohamed. Where is your Muhammad playing with little Aiyesha to come to earth and stop these atrocities done in his name?
If you don't publish Jesus cartoons (which is quite OK), then why do you burn crosses on Danish flags? Why do you burn 30 churches in Iraq? Why do you burn several churches in Nigeria? Why do you behead Christian girls in Borneo?
You say "west flies jets and pumps civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan"? Again more lies. The insurgents killed from the air are all shooting and bombing the authorities and are not civilians. There is a war going on, in case you have forgotten, in Iraq and Afghanistan, and air power is legitimately used to target the terrorists. There has been few cases of civilians getting killed by bombs dropped from the air, but those are exceptions, and civilians ARE NOT targetted - neither are they getting killed from the air, except maybe occasionally.
Get an education, Dr. Mohamed.
Posted by: kazemi | 2006-02-19 2:27:41 PM
Good day sir/madam,
You are correct. It is not right to be disrespectful towards people. But beliefs are not people. There is a difference between being disrespectful and slandering a person and being truthful and stating the facts that can offend someone who hold lies dear.
Cursing, insulting and being rude reveals our own lack of education, and character. Muhammad himself used to invoke the curse of Allah on his enemies, sometimes for 30 consecutive days. He even cursed his own uncle and the dead people. People shouln't have don’t have to follow his example. They can do better.
People have to be respected, beliefs don't have to. Beliefs have to be scrutinized and if found wanting, they should be abandoned. If found dangerous they should be confronted and exposed. In my opinion a cartoon is the most passive of these!
Some beliefs are evil. It is absurd to respect them just because someone might get offended. If people are offended by the truth, let them be offended. Truth must be said whether the lovers of lies like it or not. If Muslims are offended by what I say about Islam is not my fault, I am telling truth. Perhaps they should simply take look at their religious doctrine for themselves, instead of committing MORE acts of violence, MORE killing, MORE threats and MORE terrorism. Get the point?
If you believe people’s belief should be respected, please tell us how do you justify Muhammad's bursting into Kaba and destroying the idols of the people who believed in them?
Muhammad not only insulted the un-believers and their sacred beliefs, he assaulted them, killed them and forced his version of the truth on them.
In my school of thought, beliefs do not deserve any respect. They must be confronted, scrutinized and if found faulty, criticized and rejected. It's people that must be respected.
I would respect the rights of a Nazi but I would speak openly against his doctrine of hate. I respect the rights Muslims to believe in their hateful doctrine that calls for my death, but I cannot respect their religion that respects nothing, not even human life. I will fight it until it is destroyed.
I like the variety and believe in unity in diversity. But I will fight against Nazism, KKK, Islam and other doctrines of hate. The reason I fight against them is because if we don't destroy them, they will destroy everything in their path and they will crush that very variety that you and I cherish.
How can anyone justify these hate-laden verses of the Quran? They are not even respectful of people's right to choose, or of their lives.
9:123 "Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you."
9:5 "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them"
9:29 "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior."
3:85 "Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him; in the next world he shall be among the losers."
5:11 "And as for those who disbelieve and reject Our Signs, they are the people of Hell"
9:28 "O you who believe! Verily, the Mushrikun (unbeleivers) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) after this year,..."
2:193 "Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah."
22:19 "As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods."
9:23 "O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love Infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong."
25:52 "So obey not the disbelievers, but strive against them herewith with a great endeavor."
66:9O "Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."
47:4 "When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives."
3:28 "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah. except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (to fear) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah."
Muhammad was so indolent and disrespectful towards the beliefs of the Quraish that some of their leaders met with Abu Talib, Muhammad's uncle and begged him to intercede and refrain him from insulting their gods. They said: This Nephew of thine hath spoken opprobriously of our gods and our religion: and hath abused us as fools, and given out that our forefathers were all astray. Now, avenge us thyself of our adversary; or, (seeing that thou art in the same case with ourselves,) leave him to it that we may take our satisfaction. Abu Talib answered them softly and they parted. But as Muhammad's verbal abuse of their sacred belief did not diminish they went again to Abu Talib in great exasperation; and added: - "and now verily we cannot have patience any longer with his abuse of us, our ancestors, and our gods, wherefore either do thou hold him back from us, or thyself take part with him that the matter may be decided between us."
Dr.muhamad. People here at this site are not blind. They know most Muslims are not terrorists, but they also know most terrorists are Muslims!
People are fed up with the bully Isalm. They are not going to let Islam destroy our freedoms. So of course you will see people here express there feelings about that, and without acts of violence.
I don't have to agree with what others say, even if it insults me. But damn it! I will defend their right to say it!
Posted by: Doug | 2006-02-19 3:00:21 PM
please read by your both eyes
sanctions on iraq killed millions
wars for suspecions of mdw killed thousands
wars in chechnya killled hundred thousands of civilians.
us never targeted civilians? sorry that happened in 3 million in vietnam.
israel just killed 2 boys in palastine
and sebians who burnt the mosques and raped 20000 women
and abusing prisoner?????
killing in saddam age still less than under occupation and you can read that in any newspapers.
oasis of democracy in middle east( israel) killed more than 3000 third are kids
shame in ur religion not mine who reverse the facts .
well saying what you said about our religion is not weierd for me beacsue i told you i know who you are , you are full of lies not me
any way nam kewis ya ma3afen we rou7 este7ama
Posted by: Dr.mohamed | 2006-02-19 3:04:02 PM
1- Can Islam be discussed at all?
2- Is Prophet Muhammed infalliable?
Why are you evading these questions, and instead you uncivilly attack me personally?
Do you now understand what civilization means? It means I have the fundamental right to discuss all things, including Prophet Muhammad (there are limits on racist speech - but Islam is not a race). It also means, individuals are PROTECTED by society against attacks and slander on them.
Islamic "civilization" means: Nothing can be discussed without the permission of the Imams and the Caliph. Discussing Islam and the Prophet is a CAPITAL CRIME. And it is urged that "believers" personally attack, torture, maim or kill those who they religiously disagree with. Like that Pakistani man who was recently lynched and shot by his neighbors for swearing at Muhammad - and none of them was brought to justice - this is "Islamic civilization".
Now you know the difference between civilization and Islam. Now you know that you have been uncivil here.
Posted by: kazemi | 2006-02-19 3:23:52 PM
Dr. Mohamed says: "please read by your both eyes sanctions on iraq killed millions wars for suspecions of mdw killed thousands wars in chechnya killled hundred thousands of civilians. us never targeted civilians? sorry that happened in 3 million in vietnam."
The sanction was imposed by the United Nations - that is, by a majority of world countries. The real aggressor was Saddam who used the oil money not for Iraqi children, but for his cronies. This has nothing to do with the West.
Iraqi invasion resulted in 7,000 Iraqi civilians killed by Americans as collateral damage to free the country from Saddam, who had killed 400,000 Iraqis. Now compare that to Islamists who have killed 25,000 Iraqi civilians and who also TARGET THEM in the name of ISLAM and that depraved Prophet Muhammad playing with Ayesha dolls.
Chechnya? That is a Russian problem. Russia is a dictatorship. Why do you pin that on Europeans or North Americans? What does Canada have to do with Chechniya? The US is not dropping bombs on Chechens, you idiot.
Yes Vietnam is certainly a blotch on the western conscience. US did target civilians there. But it was not 3 million. Total Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos was about 1 million. But that was 40 years ago. If you want to go back in history, then lets discuss Islam invasion of India killing 70,000,000 million Hindus. That is equivalent to 300,000,000 Hindus being killed today. This is the BIGGEST ATROCITY IN HISTORY EVER - and it was done by ISLAM in the name of Muhammad the pedophile.
Dr. Mohamed: "and abusing prisoner?????".
Yes that is horrible. US has tortured and killed a few bombmakers in order to find out where they have planted the bombs. But how come you don't complain about Muqtada Sadr who tortured and killed 300 women, children and men when he took over Najaf in August 2004? How come you dont talk about Mahdi and Badr death squads who are torturing and slaughtering the Sunnis? How come you never talk about Zarqawi and Sunni Islamists who kidnap 20 Shiites at a time and torture them to death for absolutely no reason?
Posted by: kazemi | 2006-02-19 3:42:00 PM
None of those events you listed are the result of people following their religious doctrines. Look at the Spanish inquisition. This was simply bad people doing bad things. They did not do this because the Bible instructed them to do it. They did what they did in spite of what the Bible teaches, not because of what it teaches.
In contrast to this the Quran is replete with teachings (surahs) that REQUIRE its Muslim followers to kill, and gives many reasons for it. And how absurd that you wish to justify the Muslim terrorists and defending themselves. What did the 3000 innocent victims of 9/11 die for? And what about those innocent people in Bali, Madrid and London. At least you admit the terrorsim is Islamic, even if you don't realize it.
You wish to decieve people here with lies about why the Muslim terrorists do what they do. People here at this web site are not stupid, but you are a fool to think they are. Since when did the intentionally planned and deliberatly targeted attacks of innocent people become a legitimate expression of ones polital views? No Dr.Mohamad, this is all about a your religion of hate, Islam.
For example. Many people in the west were against the policies of the government of the England. They freely expressed their disapproval openly but peacfully. However, the only British citizens who oppossed the government and thus killed innocent civilians as a result, where Muslims. Surprise! Don't you tell me this terrorism is not about Islam's doctrine of hate, you vile lying hypocrite!
Posted by: Doug | 2006-02-19 3:47:19 PM
Dr. Muhamed: "killing in saddam age still less than under occupation and you can read that in any newspapers."
Your illiteracy is unbounded. Show me link. You DO NOT have link to rubbish you said. Saddam killed 400,000 Shiites, Kurds, and Sunnis. Americans killed 7,000 due to collateral damage. Islamists killed 25,000 innocent civilians by targetting them. I am sure your Ph.D. is not in mathematics. Probably in "Islamic sciences. Thesis: how to stone so that the video makes Al-Jazeera".
Dr. Mohamed: "shame in ur religion not mine who reverse the facts ."
WHO GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO ATTACK MY RELIGION? I thought you said nobody can attack religion, and Islam has respect for other religions (NOT), and now you are attacking mine? So now you are also a hypocrite in addition to a blasphemer.
Dr. Mohamed: "i told you i know who you are , you are full of lies not me"
Why do you have this obsession about my IDENTITY? So who am I you idiot? Why can't you answer the points, including the 2 questions I have posed to you for 2 days now - but instead you are so obsessed with my identity and attacks on me. As said before, it is NOT your FRIGGIN business who I am. If you want to do a death threat to me, do it right here. Then I will have you picked up in no time you idiot.
I advise you to stop the Islamic style ("I know who you are") ad hominem, and answer the two points:
1- Can Islam be discussed at all?
2- Is Prophet Muhammad infalliable?
Posted by: kazemi | 2006-02-19 3:50:25 PM
Those are reasonable questions.
Posted by: EBD | 2006-02-19 3:55:14 PM
How about this.
Find one example of love towards non-Muslims in the Quran.
Posted by: Doug | 2006-02-19 3:59:01 PM
you started by saying shame on islam
any way , your discussion started to be so horrible and so offensive
i do not wanna talk to you again because you are the real idiot not me
have a good evening
Posted by: Dr.mohamed | 2006-02-19 4:05:02 PM
I've been reading and commenting for 3 days now. My feelings have swung from one end to the other. Now I think I have it sorted out.
As Kazemi said I'm allowed to criticise Mohammed. Try as I might I can't argue with that. But why do I need to criticise Mohammed? What is the point? My disagreement is with some of his followers. Many years ago I made a very insulting comment about about Jesus to my sister in law. She was a missionary, and it was my way of really getting at her. It worked, she despises me to this day.
A have a feeling that some of us may be wondering what purpose was served by publishing the cartoons. For one thing it proved that Canadians can have discussions without rioting. Thats a good thing. It also pointed out some of the things we need to be more sensitive about when dealing with any religion. That's a good thing.
We also need to point out that boycotting Danish products is a bad idea. What if every non-Muslim boycotts every Muslim business? That's a bad thing.
Europian countries are, as we speak, considering wide spread restrictions on immigration, and possible expulsions. They aren't fooling. We absolutely don't want that to happen here. Sure I'd like to boot out some troublemakers, but there are a lot of good people of many faiths woven into the fabric of our society.
When I first came to Calgary as a teenager in 1970, I heard the word Paki for the first time. I didn't like it then, and I still don't. Being of Irish decent, I've seen my share of prejudice. I was very surprised to learn that you couldn't use the word nazi to describe an overbearing German. I guess they were here first.
I still support Mr. Levant's decision because I think it may have raised our awareness. But one shot of this is probably enough. I sat down with my teenage sons today and asked them to avoid insulting anyones religion, and they were in total agreement. It has to start somewhere. I do apologize for any racial slurs I made in this forum. I'll try harder in the future to think first.
Posted by: dan | 2006-02-19 4:37:09 PM
Dr. Mohamed writes: "you started by saying shame on Islam, not me"
So that gives you the right to attack my religion? (whatever it may be) BTW I am a Muslim.
So what happened to "Islam - religion of peace"? What happened to "no freedom to criticize religion"?
You were pontificating that NO RELIGION can be criticized. But now you say it is OK for you to blast my religion? Do you see your hypocricy you lowly Mohammedan?
Dr. Muhammad reasons: "i do not wanna talk to you again because you are the real idiot not me"
So is this another excuse by you to avoid the two questions? You have tried every trick in the book to NOT ANSWER the following:
1- Can Islam be discussed at all?
2- Is Prophet Muhammad infalliable?
Get a life Dr. Mohamed - integrate with your society and stop putting down the progress of civilization.
Posted by: kazemi | 2006-02-19 4:39:26 PM
dan, there is a difference between insults and criticism. Criticism is the life-blood of open society. Without it, we will slide into totalitarianism.
The problem is that some self-righteous people, ostensibly in the name of "stop the insults" are tyring to shut down criticism. This closure of discourse is what the enlightened Danes and Canadians, and now the Americans are objecting to.
Nobody is trying to insult Muslims (except to vent steam at times). When statistically 99% of atrocities are committed by Muslims today - you bet there is a lot of pent-up emotions out there. It is difficult to be tolerant to Muslims burning down churches in Indonesia, Iraq, and Nigeria.
The problem is that when somebody discusses Islam or Prophet Muhammad, or criticizes them, then the Muslims try to silence free speech by feigining offense and "insult". Their view of society is very different from ours.
Insulting Islam is an ethical issue. I think any religion should be strong enough to withstand insults, whether due or undue. But I agree with you that this is counter-productive at a mass scale. But on discussion boards, it is actually very therapeutic and productive, IMO.
But criticizing Islam is a political issue. This can only be stopped at the risk of inviting totalitarianism. There are too many western fascist-left and neo-fascist right wingers who have banded together with Islam to achieve tyrannical ends. This is a danger to open society and western civilization.
Posted by: kazemi | 2006-02-19 4:58:48 PM
I fully agree with kazemi's excellent insight and analysis.
Islam is, unlike the other monotheistic religions, also a political system. Yes - it has bonded a religious system and a political system. It hasn't separated 'church and state'.
Furthermore, unlike the other monotheistic religions, it has asserted that its axioms are 'outside of questions'. No other religious system in the world rejects analysis and questions.
Then, since it has also defined itself as a political and not merely a religious system, it also asserts that its political structures and axioms - are 'beyond questions'. You cannot question or analyze the political infrastructure of Islam!!!
That's one thing only - totalitarianism.
Posted by: ET | 2006-02-19 5:23:06 PM
Good work dealing with Dr.Muhamad. You sent him packing. He will probably come back under another name.
It never fails. When Muslims are faced with the undisputable truth of Islam, they always run away, but not before giving you either insults or threats, sometimes both.
Posted by: Doug | 2006-02-19 9:55:53 PM
I have reed alot from you guys.
The problem that christian do not know alot about thier religon as Eng.osama said.Just all they know
Jesus(pbuh)dies for us.You kinda fool as Jesus(pbuh)siad .you mean God loves us more than his son as you belive ,who is jesus?Jesus said am the son of man .Now if you ask yourself why you worship Jesus.Is he really God.Jesus(pbuh)never said am God
but the christian do .how come you worship God the jew killed him .so he had no power to save himself so he gona save you...no
second is Jesus(pbuh) know every thing as God ?no
somebody asked jesus when the time(punishment day)
he said I dont know.no body know just the father
.one day he was hungery and he and his friends so he saw a tree of figs .he went to get some of it he found nothing ,and he cursed the tree.so know nothing ,just as normal people.that is all in the bible.
and the prophets in the bible all of them killers or did the big sins.for examble aaron worship the cow.david killed his nieghbor and slept with his wife.solumon worshiped idols and alot of the prophets lived naked as alesha.you imagine God of christian asked one of his prophets to be naked 3 years.
so christian have to know that we are not the same like you ,Our riligon is holy and our prophrts to
I think you problem that you are man worshiper or lamb worshiper like the most of christian
soo make me faver read your bible and after that talk .dont be ignorant and debating the other
Posted by: DESERT Dragon | 2006-02-19 10:04:27 PM
There is absolutely no reason why you can't criticise Muhammad, the founder of Islam. In fact there is every reason in the world as to why you must criticise Muhammad. And all those reasons come from Islam's own scriptures and teachings.
Upon closely studing Islams own holy books we learn this about Muhammad. He was a rapist, a pedophile (had sex with a child), an assassin, a mass murderer, a ruthless torturer, a terrorist ("I have been made victorious through terror"), a lecher, a misogynist, a narcissist, a thief and plunderer, a cult leader, and he was mentally deranged (was paranoid, heard voices, hallucinated of seeing jinns, Satan and angels. He used to think he had sex with his wives when he did not, suffered from depression and had suicidal tendencies).
No Muslims, not even Islamic scholars, can prove these accusations are false, because the proof of these facts are supported by the teachings of Islam itself. For example, Muhammad forced a 6-year-old girl Ashia, to marry him. Muhammad consumated this marriage when Ashia was just 9-years-old and he was 54. This is a fact and Muslims cannot dispute it. Therefore telling the truth and stating the facts can't be insult. If Muslims become angry and claim to be insulted by these accusations, it is either because they themselves don't know the truth, or they are upset that you have learned it.
This is the man the over one billion Muslims worship. Can you imagine? They actually believe Muhammad was a messenger from God! Funny thing is, nobody ever told Muhammad he was a Prophet. He simply self-proclaimed it! Well so did David Koresh, Reverend Jim Jones and Asahara Shoko when they all created their own cults too. They all had charisma (good talkers), where power hungry and were narcissists.
Posted by: Doug | 2006-02-19 10:30:01 PM
By the way Dan, the one and only person that quran mentions as being perfect or "was without sin" is Jesus.
Posted by: Doug | 2006-02-19 10:35:23 PM
ALL - Is it just me or is there an implied equality between words and bullets in some of the posts by Mr. Dragon and Mohamed M.D.?
Posted by: Prometheus | 2006-02-19 10:51:25 PM
Yes Prometheus, I noticed that too. Nobody said Jihadists were clever!
Posted by: Doug | 2006-02-19 11:02:47 PM
Prometheus, yes absolutely similar. I also suspect JC and Gabriel to be the same Muslim. One thing about Muslim debators is that they do not abide by the rules of discourse, and personal abuse is their favorite tactic.
The tragedy is that for a Muslim debator to admit to any wrong, to admit to any criticism of his religion or his prophet, even the slightest, is absolutely out of question, and tantamount to total defeat. This is the all-or-nothing attitude inculcated in Muslims by their religion. Saving face is paramount, (false) dignity is central, and reason is shunned and denigrated. Reason is secondary to faith and intentionality / ideology. Reminds me of ET's 4 stages of epistemological maturity.
Changing handles, and masquerading as different posters, and even replying and supporting to himself, is not considered unethical in their value system. In fact the rules of Taqiyya encourages that. I find this extremely common among Muslim debators, but not exclusive to them. Just far more than the average.
Posted by: kazemi | 2006-02-19 11:12:15 PM
What make the bible holy
1-the porno halla hoia
song of songs:1 How beautiful your sandaled feet,
O prince's daughter Your graceful legs are like jewels, the work of a craftsman's hands.
2 Your navel is a rounded goblet that never lacks blended wine.Your waist is a mound of wheat
encircled by lilies. 3 Your breasts are like two fawns,twins of a gazelle. I said, "I will climb the palm tree;I will take hold of its fruit."
May your breasts be like the clusters of the vine,the fragrance of your breath like apples
2-lot slept with his 2 daughters
3-david slept with his nieghbor wife after he killed him
4-Jesus the god of christains Order his people to sleep with any women over 3 years old did not have sex before and kill the other
That is not all it is Just part .and I gonna write more about violence and the fiction or the cross
dont warry guys ,you gona know the true bible soon
Posted by: Eng.osama &Desert&mesh is one(trinity) | 2006-02-19 11:19:23 PM
ENG Osama, (and the rest of the voices in your head)
I'm agnostic, but I'm terrified at the prospect that the true bible I "may come to know soon " is riddled with barely decipherable diction. You know, honestly man, slow down and clean things up a bit. Type out your comments in a word processor first, do a spell check etc., it would greatly improve the clarity of your posts. I can't even comment on them, as I can't understand them.
Posted by: Prometheus | 2006-02-19 11:25:20 PM
ENG Osama, Trintity/mesh
And perhaps the Song of Songs comes from a cultural tradition that enjoys and celebrates women instead of treating them like animals.
Tabari I:280 “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.”
Posted by: Prometheus | 2006-02-19 11:30:15 PM
Hey, I figured that one out - (Porno in the Bible?,,,,,, oh he means the Song of Songs). I just needed my "Junior Jihad" decoder ring to unlock some of the the message. The bulk is still quite cryptic though.....
Posted by: Prometheus | 2006-02-19 11:32:57 PM
All I did just copy some of the bible.
so it is not my way of writting .it is the bible way
any way thanks about your comment on the bible
Posted by: Eng.osama &Desert&mesh is one(trinity) | 2006-02-19 11:33:27 PM
What you can teach your kids from song of song
oh i forget you are western it is no problem for you if your sister or your mother with any man or have 15 boyfriends.
you make me laugh.really
I dont know if you understand.and from wher you have that translation.but any way let see what God said in the bible about the women numbers 31:17
(17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.) for what for sex
. "A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse,
and do you know if you slept with somebody and you get kids from sin,your kids cant be in the kingdom of god ten generation......why I dont know
that is the peace in the bible killing kids.
Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."and
Isaiah 7:20 your god has hair in his leg lol
On that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the Euphrates River-the king of Assyria -to shave the head, the hair on the legs, and to remove the beard as well
halla hoia peace peace
Posted by: Eng.osama &Desert&mesh is one(trinity) | 2006-02-19 11:58:29 PM
Amazing that he can read, as he sure can't write or spell very well.
Posted by: MarkAlta | 2006-02-20 12:06:30 AM
Idioit Mark Alta
It is your bible not me
Posted by: Eng.osama &Desert&mesh is one(trinity) | 2006-02-20 12:08:33 AM
Hey Eng.osama - what happened to your title "Dr."?
What did you get your PhD in? "Islamic Studies"? he he he. How many computer chips can you design with your Islamic Studies PhD?
BTW, I am a Muslim, so why would I care for this bible stuff?
Posted by: kazemi | 2006-02-20 12:21:58 AM
ENG multiple personalities -
FYI - I am *agnostic* I could care less about the Bible personal as I ascribe little importance to it other than its cultural impact.
The description of a historical event in the Book of Numbers, which is, by the way, what you are quoting, is immensely different from prescriptions for action to be adhered to for all times, such as stoning women who "reveal" themselves in public. Public stonings! My good grief - take religion out of the picture and
Posted by: Prometheus | 2006-02-20 1:17:55 AM
Kazemi - for the education of the other readers here, you may want to define Taqiyya for everyone, and provide some color. I'm curious on your take of what this cultural acceptance of low integrity implies.
Posted by: Prometheus | 2006-02-20 1:55:13 AM
I think you have indian race
be happy .not soo far christianity and Krishna
Implications of points of similarity between the lives of Jesus and Krishna:
: Yeshua and Krishna were called both a God and the Son of God.
: Both was sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man.
: Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity.
: His adoptive human father was a carpenter.
: A spirit or ghost was their actual father.
: Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent.
: Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star.
: Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna's parents stayed in Mathura.
: Both Yeshua and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted.
: Both were identified as "the seed of the woman bruising the serpent's head."
: Jesus was called "the lion of the tribe of Judah." Krishna was called "the lion of the tribe of Saki."
: Both claimed: "I am the Resurrection."
: Both referred to themselves having existed before their birth on earth.
: Both were "without sin."
: Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine.
: They were both considered omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.
: Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured "all manner of diseases."
: Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead.
: Both selected disciples to spread his teachings.
: Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners.
: Both encountered a Gentile woman at a well.
: Both celebrated a last supper. Both forgave his enemies.
: Both descended into Hell, and were resurrected. Many people witnessed their ascensions
Both Krishna and Yeshua were born on December 25.
Jesus' and Krishna's mothers were holy virgins:
Jesus' and Krishna's mothers had similar names: Miriam (Mary) and Maia
Posted by: Eng,Osama&Desert&holyspirit,trinity fiction | 2006-02-20 2:13:08 AM
ENG and co -
Selectively ignoring the fact that stoning people is wrong? How about coming back to reality, and leaving comparative mythology aside for a moment or three?
Posted by: Prometheus | 2006-02-20 2:15:18 AM
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