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Thursday, September 29, 2005

Freedom v. 'free' healthcare

Jacob Sullum, senior editor at Reason, addressed a Montreal Economic Institute event in Toronto yesterday (CP report here) about food freedom -- the freedom to eat what you want without government interference. Here are some choice quotes:

"People may very well choose to trade off years of their life, or the possibility of disease or injury, in exchange for the current pleasure, excitement, or stress relief they get (from food)."

"It's not for the government to say that's not a legitimate trade-off to make. Canadians need to question the idea that just because something implicates health that government intervention is justified."

"You're talking about protecting people from their own decisions," Sullum said in an interview before the speech.

"What you put in your mouth and how much exercise you get, that's pretty personal. It doesn't get much more personal than that."

All true, but the counter-argument the Left gives in Canada is that these decisions affect your health, that the public pays for (much of) your healthcare and therefore your private decisions have a public cost. Again, that's true. But for libertarians and conservatives that should be an argument against universal, single-payer, state-run healthcare. If such a healthcare system limits my legitimate freedoms, then the system is an onerous burden that needs to be changed, not my behaviour. Mark Steyn has written numerous times that the biggest problem with Canada's healthcare system is not that it is hugely expensive and yet literally kills people, but that it makes people weak because they become dependent on the state. He should add that the second biggest problem, though, is that it gives license for the state to control any part of your life that has (or could be argued to have) any affect on your health.

Posted by Paul Tuns on September 29, 2005 in Current Affairs | Permalink


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Well, it has already started. Smoking bans, "bad food" in school bans (proposed, I suppose), fat taxes (proposed), extra alcohol taxes,...

Posted by: Johan i Kanada | 2005-09-29 1:05:04 PM

Great post! Take away one freedom, the freedom to choose health care providers. Then, to add insult to injury (pardon the pun), take away more freedoms and justify it because of the first freedom that was taken away. Since we now apparently need to control what people eat, shouldn't we nationalize the farming and food processing industries? Easily justified by the same logic.

Posted by: Mad Eye Moody | 2005-09-29 1:12:18 PM

I think this is a basic dilemma, due to the fact that we exist both as individuals and as members of a collective. I think there is no perfect solution, and it can't be one or the other.

After all, I could claim that as an individual, I have the right to do anything, without government intrusion. That would include ingesting drugs, alcohol as ell as food. I might even insist that the government need not care for me if I become ill from alcohol abuse. But, the society then needs to protect itself from my behaviour when drunk - what if I drive and kill someone?
On the opposite side, the community might claim that to protect its members, it has to control my individual nature.

I think the dilemma is basic to our human nature, can never be resolved, and the 'two solitudes' have to negotiate, constantly, the rights of the other and ensure a fair balance.

Posted by: ET | 2005-09-29 1:23:09 PM

Much as I like Mark I first heard about it that kind of brain loss here.

"But you don’t want to get up off the floor"

Just say no to RRSP's free waitcare and God save the Kinks.

from Arthur or the decline and fall of the British empire. 1969

The aristocrats and bureaucrats
Are dirty rats
For making you what you are
They're up there and you re down here
You're on the ground and they're up with the stars
All your life they've kicked you around and pushed you around
Till you can't take any more
To them you're just a speck of dirt
But you don't want to get up off the floor
Mister you're just brainwashed

They give you social security
Tax saving benefits that grow at maturity
Yeah, you're conditioned to be
What they want you to be
And to do what they want you to
Yes you are, yes you are
Get down on your knees

Posted by: ghollingshead | 2005-09-29 2:44:46 PM

Memory: Arbeit Macht Frei>>>>

Netherlands Plans Expansion of Child Euthanasia

Posted by Salman
On 09/29/2005 2:05:54 PM PDT · 9 replies · 102+ views

AP via Fox ^ | 29 Sept 2005 | AP
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands — The Dutch government intends to expand its current euthanasia policy, setting guidelines for when doctors may end the lives of terminally ill newborns with the parents' consent. A letter outlining the new directives will be submitted to parliament for discussion by mid-October, but the new policy will not require a vote or change of law, Dutch Health Ministry spokeswoman Annette Dijkstra told The Associated Press on Thursday. The Netherlands became the first nation to legalize euthanasia for adults under some conditions in 2001, and the latest move is likely to spark an outcry from the Vatican, right-to-life...>>> more freerepublic.com

Posted by: maz2 | 2005-09-29 3:27:38 PM

It's not health-care V freedom, that's just a symptom of the problem, it's socialism V freedom.
Everything about socialism is about control.
child care to nursing homes, socialism(government) tells you what, how and who will provide what where and how much with no choice to provide for yourself.

Personaly I would give up Canadian health-care, EI, and all the rest if I could just keep more of what I earn at a saddly deflated wage.
Hell I made more twenty years ago with a much lower wage than I take home today.

Socialism = a rich government and poor citizens enslaved to taxes to provide for beauracrates and
politicians to live like lords and kings.

Posted by: Durward | 2005-09-29 5:22:37 PM

Outside of basic law know one would normally stand for a government to dictate how one is to live there life. In the past lifestyle has always been a personal choice.
These days however the government uses government agencies such as Health care to force behavior and lifestyle standards on the population. If you do not conform you run the risk as a society, they claim, of loosing your Healthcare. It will be unaffordable. This is proof of what I have been saying for years. It use to be, in this country, that the government worked for the people. Today the people work for the government. You have to change, not the government, if you wish to maintain the services you enjoy. Eat at McDonalds and you run the risk of loosing Healthcare. Generally if government lacks funds at all, like any other business it should cut back on lesser priorities. I should think that, for one we should be able to cut back on the Saskatchewan Dept. of Fisheries and Oceans. To the best of my knowledge not even the deepening of Wascana Lake in Regina has created a need for submarines in Saskatchewan

Posted by: Dwayne Hill | 2005-09-29 5:42:34 PM

Over the last 20 years several friends of mine have moved to the U.S. and so far, not ONE of them would dream of moving back to Socialist Canada. My turn is coming, and I can't wait. The U.S. is not perfect, but it is a good example of what Canada could be if we only had the guts!
This once great democracy has been turned into a socialistic basket-case that I can no longer stand, nor recognize. What a bloody waste!
Rob Anderson

Posted by: Rob Anderson | 2005-09-29 7:17:05 PM

The very intimate nature of health care makes it a most delicate matter and a sensitive issue to deal with.
This issue is at the heart of personal and collective maturity.
The capacity, ability and wisdom of caring, be it for health or any essential aspact of living, spin in personal and collective cycles which stretch their perpetual movement from self-destruction to self-control to community self-government.
During the last Alberta provincial election, I joined the Green party and I ran in Edmonton Beverly-Clareview.
The important part of info that came up was directly what I needed to find out about, namely that the number one reason Albertans go see their family doctors is related to mental health.
I ran in the campaign because I had been frustrated in my attempts to enter the field of social services as a "social enterpreneur", with my 30 years of experience on and off the recovery road, dealing with people with whom mental and emotional imbalances abound.
The main difference between a social worker and the enterpreneur is that social workers are accessed once the system is in gear, whereas the enterpreneur is here, available now with the immediate service requested by the "knock at the door any time of day or night". Then, from basic sharing in a setting of reciprocity, the enterpreneur accesses the system customized to the needs, in an environment of balance and harmony in order to reach personal good health and hapiness. These are 4 words at the centre of the traditional Chinese wisdom, as most Westerners have heard them repeated often by now.
Common sense is screaming to the Western world with the voice of our own sciences to start learning to agree with one another into the dynamics of personal and mutual care. Diversity is no excuse for ignorance to rule over what we know better.
When we allow the caring part to rule, that'll be when our cycles will get calibrated and our health finely tuned up from the acquisition of the taste for health to the victory over stress and the compulsive nature.
At this point in Alberta, we are talking about going from stranger to family, in the peace of mind to ease the munber one medical problem we face as a population.
Pro-active community health care and restorative justice is needed to help medic-care out of dependency.
You can view my detailed suggestion to build the Canadian Health Trail from Edmonton on to Ottowa by clicking on my name here below in blue. When you get to the page, it'll be empty until you scroll down to the start of my dreaming on for the day when we forge that ground level alliance made of restorative justice and community mental health, regards,

Posted by: Benoit Couture | 2005-09-29 8:02:34 PM

Canada likes to brag about the fact that the British Empire banned the ownership of human beings from sujects residing in the Empire and the U.S.A. still had slavery as a right in some states . Over 150 years after the battle of Gettysburg - Canada is setting up a slave state - with the consent of the potential slaves!! Cradle to grave servitude and being told what to do- is this what the Canadian citizens want?? Not all slaves were mistreated - some were treated with the solicitude some people lavish on family pets - but ownership is ownership whatever the environment.

Posted by: jema54 | 2005-09-29 9:25:09 PM


Mr. Tuns has a wish list of things he wants the government impose as long as your arm.

Outlaw birth control, divorce and sodomy, enforce covenantal marriage, ban feminism and nihilism and control the content the media produced - all to save civilzatiom as we know it.

I guess my old Gramma was right - It all depends on whose ox is gettin' gored.

Mont D. Law

Posted by: montdlaw | 2005-09-30 5:59:24 AM

Why shouldn't Mr. Tuns have a say where the government spends his money? If you don't like it, have the government let him keep his money and spend it where he wants and you spend where you want. In other words don't let the government touch your ox.

Posted by: Stewart | 2005-09-30 12:04:41 PM

"Don't let the government touch your ox"

That's libertarianism, the only way to freedom and prosperity.

Socialism and conservatism alike acknowledges the right of the elite to control you!

Posted by: Johan i Kanada | 2005-09-30 12:47:11 PM

I don't dislike it Stewart, I just find it amusing that someone so enamored of government power when it comes to his agenda is so annoyed at anyone else using it for theirs.

I would be perfectly happy to leave Mr. Tun's ox alone. The government should not be allowed to force him to use birth control, divorce or practice sodomy. It should not impair his ability of practice covenantal marriage, feminism or nihilism. The government should not force him to consume media he does not approve of.

However, Mr. Tun's would be perfectly satisfied to have the government ban birth control, divorce and sodomy, mandate covenantal marriage, outlaw feminism and nihilism and eliminate all media that does not meet with his approval.

Mr. Tun's doesn't just want to touch other peoples oxen, he want to slaughter them and feast on their bones.

Mont D. Law

Posted by: montdlaw | 2005-09-30 12:51:00 PM

Noting an Interim feature I wrote in August, Mont D. Law says I would approve of "Outlaw[ing] birth control, divorce and sodomy, enforce covenantal marriage, ban feminism and nihilism and control the content the media produced - all to save civilzatiom as we know it." I never called for outlawing any of these things but rather noted that all these have happened in Canada over the past 40 years as part of the moral destruction of Canada. I don't think government can ban feminism or nihilism, and I haven't called for and do not support a political program that would outlaw divorce, non-abortifacient birth control or sodomy. Neither do I support banning pornography, which what I presume montdlaw is suggesting when he talks about controlling the content the media produced.

All that said, I think that it is fair that conservatives (usually of the religious variety) try to persuade others that divorce, birth control, sodomy and pornography are morally wrong and/or harmful to the individuals involved. Certainly libertarians are not opposed to persuasion, which is, after all, the reason for society permitting (and desiring) freedom of expression.

Posted by: Paul Tuns | 2005-09-30 8:28:40 PM

I'm sorry, perhaps I misunderstood.

'Obviously, the issue of legislating morality is not a question of whether it should be done or not. The issue is whose morality is legislated. For 40 years, the debate has been settled almost every time in favour of those who want to remake society, destroy time-honoured institutions, create new “rights” and upset the moral order.'

Or perhaps you're being a tad disingenuous.

Which brings us back to the hidden agenda, which as we all know is an evil ficton invented by the CBC to be parroted endlessly by its liberal minions.

Mont D. Law

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Posted by: Anonymous | 2006-08-29 4:19:10 AM


Thanks for responding.

It's amazing how quick people's words can get twisted into giving an impression of something that's the complete opposite of the original intent.

And, here we figured only the MSM were guilty of that.

At least is shows posters here are also subject to human failing ... the ability to jump to conclusions without checking out all the facts causes many problems.

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