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Wednesday, August 17, 2005

Unable to have a serious discussion about crime

A suggestion by Toronto city councilor Michael Thompson to pull over and search young blacks as part of the solution to the growing violent crime problem in the city has shifted the debate away from crime and toward racial profiling and Michael Thompson. The hysterical reaction to Thompson's suggestion is indicative of the impossibility of having a serious discussion about crime in this country. Mayor David Miller and his liberal allies on city council, the various "community groups" and the media want to focus on guns or the lack of "recreational opportunities" for young people or poverty, anything but the criminals themselves.

The most hysterical reaction to Thompson came from Toronto Star municipal columnist Royson James who said in a repugnant column:

"If Toronto city Councillor Michael Thompson is trying to make a name for himself, he certainly has. Around city hall yesterday, the rookie politician was being called Uncle Tomson.

When it comes to name-calling, that's as offensive as it gets for a black man. And yet, this black man has brought it on himself."

Read that again. Is not James and perhaps even the Star endorsing the use of the phrase Uncle Tom to describe a black politician who strays off the liberal plantation? Or at the very least, defending those who would use such terms?

Another example of hysteria: "... after all, even South Africa abandoned apartheid." Profiling is hardly segregation. But speaking of South Africa ... several years ago I was talking to a black South African going to university in Toronto. She said that when she hears someone walking behind her at night and she turns around and sees a white person, she is relieved. She knows the statistics and they don't lie. Young blacks are more likely to the perpetrators of crime. Blacks are also more likely to be the victims of crime. Few people mention the latter fact, although city councilor Michael Thompson has. That part of his talk to Toronto Star reporters on the crime epidemic isn't getting a lot of play.

The merits of Thompson's proposal should be debated, not dismissed. There are certainly arguments against profiling criminals -- and that's important; based on personal experience, anecdotal evidence and statistics, the police know what most criminals look like. Not every black youth would fit the profile of a likely gun-toting criminal, and those that are pulled over, searched and found to be gun and drug free should recieve an apology and go on their way. But instead of debating criminal profiling, Royson James, David Miller, Police Chief Bill Blair, and others would rather demonize a city councilor for putting forward an admittedly controversial idea to help fight crime than risk alienating some noisy black leaders by targeting likely criminals.

Listening to Blair in recent days it sounds as if he believes that Job One for the boys in blue is improving relations with minority communities rather than fighting crime. And Miller is coming up with ideas on locking up people's guns in one central location, a signal that the gun control agenda begins with registration and ends with confiscation. But no one on the Left wants to talk about what to do with criminals. It's as if the guns are murdering Torontonians without anyone shooting them.

Posted by Paul Tuns on August 17, 2005 in Municipal Politics | Permalink


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Michael Thompson for Governor General!

Posted by: Tony | 2005-08-17 10:30:25 PM

Un-effing believable. It is true that life can no longer be parodied - reality is too far beyond reasonable imagination as it is.

Posted by: Strong and Free in AB | 2005-08-17 10:42:56 PM

A question for Mayor Miller. If you are blaming the increase in gun-related murders on unregistered firearms coming into Canada from the US, how will locking up all the registered firearms in a central depository reduce the crimes? Does anyone think he will be asked that rather obvious question?

Posted by: Alex | 2005-08-17 11:09:31 PM

I know this is repeating myself, but it never seems to lose its credibility.

Could these Easterners GET any stupider???

Posted by: Scott | 2005-08-17 11:28:27 PM

They're not stupid, it's the voters. They are just doing what has worked reliably for them in the past. NEVER actually SOLVE a problem. Just dance around, talk talk talk, fan the flames and chase every red herring you can find, poke ridicule at anyone who suggests a real solution, then at election time put on your serious face and promise to fix the problem. Works every time.

Posted by: John | 2005-08-17 11:42:54 PM

And is that not a sign of stupidity, John?

It sounds to me like they're not taking their own affairs seriously when any other population would consider them to be critical issues requiring decisive action.

What is it about Ontario? It can't be anything in the water, air, or food because I've lived there and was awestruck by the sheer madness of the place. I think it's something in their money - they have too much of it. Maybe if we took it away, like taking a credit card away from a college student, they would smarten up.

Until then, my conclusion is that Ontarians are just plain stupid.

Posted by: Scott | 2005-08-17 11:52:12 PM

It is the utmost in racism to put ones Political Correctness above the lives of innocent Blacks.

How are those 'Black Leaders' elected? How do we know who they speak for?

Posted by: BillM | 2005-08-18 7:00:14 AM

Tis all about power...as always:
1. Mayor Miller can keep himself in power with less effort (help from the press) by playing the PC card, than to take a chance attacking the real problem. (the press can't sell news papers full of GOOD news)
2. Greater concern for personal safety will convince ever more civilians to give up there own rights (power) to one who would promise to keep them safe. (the reason we "elected" leaders in the cave to begin with)

Cheers, D.

Posted by: Darren | 2005-08-18 8:20:05 AM

At it's heart this is not a policing problem or a racial problem. The nation of Liberalia is out of control in the areas of taxation, welfare, unemployment and immigration. As long as you have high taxes and generous welfare, you will have high unemployment, and the unemployed people will commit crimes. If you open up the gates to immigration in an attempt to get more taxpayers, then you will get even more unemployment and even more crime. And when attracting immigrants, a nation with high taxes and generous welfare will tend to attract the sick, old and slothful, whereas a less socialist nation will attract smarter and more energetic people.

I understand that the Mayor Giuliani approach has its merits - if it's a given that the socialist state is not going to be dismantled anytime soon, then there is no excuse for putting up with street crime, petty or otherwise. But this approach will fail in the end, unless the socialist disease is stopped.

I think that Giuliani managed to avoid a lot of accusations of racial profiling, and this was because the emphasis was not on randomly stopping people who looked suspicious, but on stopping, harrassing and arresting people who were obviously breaking laws - even the most petty ones. Stuff like loitering, vagrancy, disturbing the peace, and whatnot. I imagine that Toronto could do this by forgetting about stopping black men driving around in fancy sleds, and concentrating on enforcing liquor laws and fire codes, enforcing noise bylaws, arresting loiterers and trespassers in malls, etc.

Posted by: Justzumgai | 2005-08-18 9:02:47 AM

But Just.

Loitering and vagrancy aren't against the law in Toronto anymore! that's part of the problem.

The most famous Second Cup in the world is in the Gay Village in Toronto's Church and Wellesley. It was celebrated, for instance, as "The Steps" on Kids in the Hall. Open 24 hours a day, the place had these steps where people hung out, met and socialized. It was arguably the heart of the community.

The Second Cup had to get rid of the steps, though. Because teenaged crack head hustlers with giant ghetto blasters (and no intention of buying coffee) took them over and refused to move. The cops couldn't and wouldn't do a thing. Because private property isn't protected by the Charter, the owners had no choice. Last I heard the Steps were scheduled for the bulldozer.

Any attempt to bring back the old vagrancy laws in Canadian cities are immediately fought, successfully, by leftist activists and their little friends on City Council.

Posted by: Kathy Shaidle | 2005-08-18 9:54:49 AM

OK then, Liberalia is toast.

It may actually be the best strategy to vote NDP, or not vote at all, in order that the stinking socialist edifice should collapse that much sooner. While at the same time taking prudent steps to ensure that one has the personal and financial assets to survive come hell or high water - by moving to another country if necessary.

Posted by: Justzumgai | 2005-08-18 11:01:10 AM

Maybe if the deaths in TO reach 1000 a year they will face reality.

Are any Scottish canadians comitting the killings?
If they were I would say search their cars too. That wouldn't be racist though because they are white.

If the groups need more community outreach it just shows what a flop our immigration plan is.

It doesn't just give us half a million dollar bungalos.

Posted by: ghollingshead | 2005-08-18 1:18:11 PM

Ps Scott in my teeny tiny circle we call them Ontairidiots.

Posted by: ghollingshead | 2005-08-18 1:28:32 PM

As long as Canada's gates are left wide open to provide votes to the Liberal party, get used to gang warfare and violence in the cities. Now that Canada is the world's immigration septic tank, don't expect change. It would be politically incorrect to actually identify and prosecute the perpetrators.
It's exoneration by pigmentation.

Posted by: AlexShanks | 2005-08-18 4:33:11 PM

Another comment on the state of justice in our country - CBC.ca "Winnipeg anti-fogging protestor gets absolute discharge" Aug.18th
Can you imagine the outcry of the media and left if a judge complimented and exonerated an anti-abortion protestor like this?
"Woe-is-me Canada" a victory for the "save the mosquitos" crowd!

Posted by: jack | 2005-08-18 5:08:14 PM

The title of the original post says "Unable to have a serious discussion about crime" and if you look at all the above comments there is but only one (Kathy Shaidle's) that is even remotely serious. Everything is just Liberal or Ontario or black people bashing.

You know, it's easy to smear conservatives, especially conservatives from Alberta as racists with posts like these. Now I'm not saying or calling anyone such a term; just saying it's way too easy for any NDP/Liberal campaigner to do it. You guys just give them so much material to work with.

Mr. Thompson's suggestion is that police be allowed to randomly pull people over and search them. Because he mentioned black people it has been called racial profiling; but everyone, left, right, center has missed the boat. In what kind of society is it okay for police to randomly pull over anyone?

I can think of lots of countries, past and present, such as the former USSR, East Germany, Saddam's Iraq; the list is long. But I can't think of a single successful one on the list where the police can pull someone over without suspicion.

So is that what you Western Standard people are advocating? Police state tactics. Because that's what Mr Thompson is. He even went so far as to say that anyone (black, white) driving a BMW or Mercedes in a poor neighbourhood should be pulled over and searced. Sounds like 1968 Yugoslavia too me. Is that what you guys want?

Seemingly the only reason you guys are jumping on this is because he said "black people".

Secondly, why pick on Ontario or Liberals or immigrants. Every year statistics show the homicide rate in all of Ontario to be lower than that in Alberta. (Stats Can 2004 crime stats: http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050721/d050721a.htm
and Stats Can 2003 crime stats http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/040929/d040929a.htm ). Is this somehow the Liberals fault too? Do the "socialists" sneak into Alberta at night and secretly hynotize you guys to make you kill each other? Or did PMPM make such a welfare state of Alberta that you guys can't cope anymore. Can anyone provide a rational explanation for your murder rate? The Alberta homicide rate is even higher than quite a few US states such as Minnesota.

How come you guys are such hotheads? Why aren't you calling for random searches of white Albertans by the police.

Even with all the "out of control" black people, the Toronto homicide rate is still lower than both Calgary's and Edmonton's. Why is that? Is one of your commenters (Justzumgai) right? Is immigration too blame for the murder rate in Calgary and Edmonton too?

As I said at the start of this comment, it is way too easy to smear conservatives are racists when you give them this kind of material to work with.

Posted by: Observer | 2005-08-18 8:57:05 PM

Observer, the police in all countries have always used profiling. Even in our country you'll see them checking out the three dodgy-looking white kids behind the 7-11, while they ignore the ambulance taking grandma to the hospital.

You asked "In what kind of society is it okay for police to randomly pull over anyone? I can't think of a single successful one...where the police can pull someone over without suspicion."

Ever heard of Checkstops?

Posted by: EBD | 2005-08-18 10:03:47 PM

observer: what will it take for Ontarians to realize they have some serious social problems that require decisions and leadership? You can't avoid the problem by attacking your critics forever.

Do you really think money grows on trees? Oh right, you're from Ontario. My bad.

Posted by: Scott | 2005-08-18 10:32:29 PM

Observer, perhaps if you were more observant you would know most of Alberta's murders this year have been Asian gang members killing on another.

Posted by: smart enough to leave Ontario | 2005-08-18 10:44:17 PM

Dear Mr Smart Enough: if you want to pick a year when the Alberta homicide rate was lower than Ontario's you can go ahead anytime now. Has it been Asian gang members every year since 1985? Just asking.

EBD: Checkstops? Too clever by half. Now if you could just name a country that you think is a) successful and b) police can randomly search anyone, anywhere for anything. Just go ahead.
Because that's what Mr Thompson is proposing.

Scott: You want Alberta to be a crime critic? I think the point of my post was that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Posted by: Observer | 2005-08-19 6:39:35 AM

Thanks for proving my point, observer. No wonder you people constantly re-elected Chretien. He's just like you - you can get away with anything if you stop those who are out to get you. Sad, pathetic city.

I don't know which is funnier: watching your community die from neglect, or watching you people deny it. Baghdad Bob has more credibility.

Now that the CBC is off the air, Ontario's ability to lie is severely crippled. (By the way, the Holocaust DID happen, contrary to what the CBC has said before). However, you people were the only ones who believed the lies. The rest of us giggled because we knew better. Have fun.

Geez, you Easterners are SO stupid!

Posted by: Scott | 2005-08-19 7:08:44 AM


Pot. Kettle. Black.

Posted by: Observer | 2005-08-19 7:11:27 AM

Oh look, another murder in Toronto.

But don't worry. He wasn't shot with a gun. I'll bet you people are relieved.

Edmonton had another murder last night - the 24th of the year. Quite sad to see another life taken so senselessly. This is why Alberta has to secede - so we can take control of our justice system and manage these problems. The combined forces of the Ontario and Federal governments haven't done a thing to reduce crime in Ontario.

Posted by: Scott | 2005-08-19 7:24:00 AM

Just a clarification: Speaking for myself, I don't have any "interests" in that I dont' belong to or represent any political parties. Also: these threads aren't heavily monitored, so if something particularly obnoxious is missed, well - let one of us know, or just get over it.

However, I have noticed a peculiar double standard on the part of those on the left who post here.
"Offensive" comments made by readers on the right are considered "endorsed" by the Western Standard and the "conservative movement" when they aren't removed.

So - using that logic, just what does that say about the "offensive" comments that are posted here courtesy of the left? That the WS and the conservative movement endorse those as well?

You cannot have it both ways you know -- if you believe you should have the right to write things that conservatives don't like, then expect to read things you don't like, too.

Neither implies that a comment has any support outside the person who wrote it.

It's nothing more than the consequence of a very generous commenting policy that has been established in the interest of free debate.

Now, quit whining and play nice with each other.

Posted by: Kate | 2005-08-19 1:04:22 PM

If you read Royson James you get the idea that Torontonians who are not committing crimes are more guilty than the killers.

That's because they have shaped the killers by neglecting them.

Maybe the government can find things for these aimless kids to do but Roy wants you to believe that the government is the main problem.

He feels free to characterize Councillor Thompson as an enemy of black people but he himself is much worse.

Because he doesn't seem to be talking about government assistance. He seems to be telling black Torontonians that they have no power and that the government has primary responsibility for their lives.

As for poverty, I saw documentary on CBC about the mother of a boy who got involved with counterfeiters and was killed.

She wasn't rich but she drove a car and had a TV in her apartment. How poor is that?

The Star itself has run articles about gun and posse culture being imported directly from Jamaica without being a product of the Canadian environment.

It also ran a series on the Portuguese community which said that next to the Jamaican community the Portuguese had the highest school dropout rate.

But, as is obvious, Portuguese people are white so their dropout rate cannot be caused by racism. It's obviously a matter of the imported culture.

A young Portuguese-Canadian politician was quoted saying that "government has failed us".

What does that mean? That the government should target certain immigrant communities with the intention of having them drop the bad habits and ideas they bring from their mother countries.

Can you see the headlines?

Posted by: Gibson Block | 2005-08-20 5:53:49 PM

Edmonton has one of the highest crime rates in Canada... And, unlike someone said above, Edmonton doesn't have a big problem with Asian gangs, that is Calgary. Edmonton's gangs are often Native but there are also many Black gangs starting up sets, just recently a group of 20-something black men affiliated with a Bloods set killed an Alberta Warriors native gang member in the slum known as Abbotsfield. If Toronto wants to profile just black men, then what will that say for places like Edmonton, where many races are involved with gang activity? Also what about Montreal, where the biker war is out of hand and the gang members are white?

Posted by: omgwtfbbq | 2005-09-13 1:13:04 PM


Posted by: The Crawling Chaos | 2006-03-23 10:21:50 PM

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