The Shotgun Blog
« Liberty and Freedom: Taking inspiration from the anti-authoritarian left | Main | Marriage rates are in decline in Canada despite inclusion of same-sex unions »
Tuesday, July 14, 2009
Good Taxes
Conservative Prime Minister says conservative thing. MSM punditry becomes apoplectic:
Quote from the Prime Minister:
"You know, there's two schools in economics on this, one is that there are some good taxes and the other is that no taxes are good taxes. I'm in the latter category. I don't believe any taxes are good taxes."
Perhaps Harper was oversimplifying; maybe he didn't fully think through what he was saying. But this is the prime minister of the country, not some guy who's had one too many drinks at a cocktail party and begun railing against the evils of government. So it seems to me we're obliged to consider the fact that the person running the country, by his own account, thinks all taxes are bad.
If taken to its logical conclusion, that would also mean that all government spending is bad. Not just equalization and grants and other things that Harper would have taken offence to back in his National Citizens Coalition days. We're also talking about defence, and law enforcement, and any public infrastructure whatsoever - stuff that even the most libertarian members of Harper's party would concede that we need.Think about it: The prime minister of a country is saying, “I don't believe that any taxes are good taxes.”
There is no “school,” to use Stephen Harper's word, anywhere in economics that says “no taxes are good taxes.” Not even Milton Friedman and the Chicago school think that. Nor do Mr. Harper's former mentors at the University of Calgary.
They, like right-wing politicians, might think taxes are too high, maybe way too high. They might think the private sector can do lots of things better than the public sector. They might believe taxes should be lower. But anyone who says “no taxes are good taxes” and “I don't believe that any taxes are good taxes” is wrong economically, and very, very scary socially and politically.
Posted by PUBLIUS on July 14, 2009 | Permalink
Comments
This is irritating.
Have these people not heard of the old adage, "government is a necessary evil"?
Have the commentators never heard of the Austrian school of economics, especially as represented by the Mises Institute?
For someone who is not a member of the Austrian school, like Harper, or someone who, like Friedman, thinks some government is justified, the patently obvious thinking is this: All taxes are bad (just like all medical operations are bad), but, sometimes, they (taxes and operations) might be necessary.
Harper is not saying something that Friedman would disagree with. In fact, Friedman and some of the members of the Chicago school would agree with Harper's statement without hesitation.
This is a pretty amateurish mistake on the part of the columnists you cite, PUBLIUS. I'm disappointed. (However, I'm encouraged and happy to hear Harper say that, even though he hasn't acted like he believes it).
Posted by: P.M. Jaworski | 2009-07-14 9:52:16 PM
Change government to administration, and taxes to user fees...and you might have a system that supports both liberty and infrastructure.
Harper is all air though...
Posted by: The original JC | 2009-07-14 10:20:50 PM
I agree with P.M.J. The Prime Minister did not say that taxes are not needed.
Posted by: dewp | 2009-07-14 10:23:46 PM
Most pundints will take things said out of context and to illigical conclusions to mock the people they don't like or further their own ends.
Harper also being an economist perhaps doesn't consider government spending and the results there of as mutually inclusive. Where as defense is good, paying for defense can be bad, extracting money from corporations to pay for defense is worse, extracting money from individuals to pay for defense is worse still and the worst is doing it against their will.
Just because one aspect of a system is bad doesn't mean all aspects are.
Perhaps he also is of the school that excludes tariffs, fees and other income sources from the word "tax".
Posted by: Pete | 2009-07-14 10:52:39 PM
All taxes are distorting. Therefore, there is no such thing as a "good" tax, which is not the same as saying we should have no taxes. It only implies that there is a cost associated with taxes.
I want to hear more talk like this from Harper. Great stuff.
Posted by: Matthew Johnston | 2009-07-14 10:53:08 PM
wow could we be seeing old Steven Harper emerging finally? I have my doubts but its good to hear that he still believes that taxes tax society and not taxes are the way to go. He should put his money where his mouth is take back the GM & other bail outs and return it to the people through consumption or income tax breaks. That will stimulate the economy!
Posted by: Calgary Libertarian | 2009-07-15 7:25:27 AM
Good taxes = those levied on Alberta that go to support Ontario's luxurious privileged lifestyle.
Bad taxes = any levied on Ontario for any reason whatsoever. They expect others to support them, the lazy bums.
Posted by: Zebulon Pike | 2009-07-15 9:15:09 AM
Good grief! If those quotes from columsists are what you characterize as "apoplectic", then my grocery list is apoplectic too.
But more to the point: there seems to be a lot of spinning going on here from Pubis, Jaws, and Matthew. Quite simply, there is a difference between saying "All taxes, on balance, are bad" and saying "all taxes have a bad element to them". Harper was sloppily unclear about which he meant, and so invited the interpretation that he meant the former.
One reason for reading him as saying the former is because the latter is something that even the most gung-ho tax-and-spend socialist could agree with. Such a gung-ho tax-and-spend socialist might say that on balance very high taxes with lots of expensive government services are a very good thing that makes high taxes on balance a good thing, but of course there is at least something bad about taxes in that no one likes paying them (the gung-ho tax-and-spend socialist included) and everyone would be much happier keeping the money.
Another reason for reading him as saying the former is because if all he is saying is that there is merely a bad element to all taxes, then he just as easily, using the same logic, could have said that all taxes are good, too. Insofar as any tax can be used to pay for national defence and police services and insofar as it is a good thing to have those services, any tax can have a good element to it as well, and thus all taxes are good, too. But he didn't say that and I bet you all the money that Canada Revenue raises in a year that he never would.
If Harper had said "there is at least some downside to any tax" then everyone would yawn because we all agree that this is true. So if he is saying anything of substance at all (and it would seem fair to interpret his words as doing that) he was saying that no taxes on balance are a good thing.
But, of course, at the end of the day it is not your rhetoric on taxes that matters, it is your actions. With all the spending that Harper's government has been doing, the real truth of his view is that while he (like everyone else in the world) thinks that there is a bad element to all taxes, he finds ways to justify an awful lot of it as on balance a good thing. So no matter how you cut it, his words are just empty rhetoric.
Posted by: Fact Check | 2009-07-15 9:27:06 AM
//Have these people not heard of the old adage, "government is a necessary evil"?//
I don't think any evil is necessary :)
//stuff that even the most libertarian members of Harper's party would concede that we need.//
Conservatives are NOT libertarian. Libertarians are libertarians.
@ JC //Change government to administration, and taxes to user fees...and you might have a system that supports both liberty and infrastructure.//
I like...
Posted by: Scott Carnegie | 2009-07-15 9:34:58 AM
I am not concerned about Harper's little wafer incident in the Catholic Church, what I am supremely upset about is the fact that Stephen Harper is in favor of giving up Canada's Sovereignty to the New World Order, wherby Canadians would essentially become the slaves and serfs of the New World Order, that was nice of him! ? When and where did Canadians give him permission to sell out Canada to the NWO ( Bilderberg Group ) As far as I am concerned he is a traitor to Canada and he can shove his wafer where the sun don't shine!
By the way, if you are interested in seeing and hearing the proof it is on youtube wherby he states,"I believe we need World Governance", in his speech at the G8 Summit Meeting in Italy, there is also a video clip on the infowars website of which you can google to trace it! Take a look for your self!
Ignatieff will sell us out as well, he already has a Nice fat carbon tax ready for us! I also believe he is a sympathizer of Illuminatti organizations!
Canada needs a Libertarian Prime Minister, Real Democracy,More rights for Canadian Citizens also citizens deserve the right to defend themselves - lack of that right in Canada makes us extremely socialist, as in these times it makes it easier for criminals to injure you and they will barely get a tap on the wrist! You defend yourself - you get sued and thrown in jail! What kind of a democracy is that? ( Just some fuzzy headed liberal's dream, it is not reality that deals with criminal minds! ) Police squads in Canada are mostly clean up crews and body bag stuffers as they usually arrive at the scene of a crime after it has been committed, they are not doing that much protecting, which is what I expect for my tax dollars! Unless we make some major libertarian changes we are doomed!
Posted by: Btok | 2009-07-15 3:02:43 PM
The first thing that strikes me is that Jeffery Simpson is a fool. Has he never heard of Ludwig Von Mises and the Austrian School?
Yes, you statist latte-sipping noodle-brained idiots in the media, all taxes are bad. All taxes cause distortions. Just as government subsidies and regulations cause malinvestments.
Remember the term that government is a "necessary evil?". Do these pundits remember what the term "evil" means?
I disagree, government is not a necessary evil, Its just evil.
Posted by: GeronL | 2009-07-15 5:11:00 PM
lol.
I should at least skim the comments first... would have saved some time and said..
dittos PJM
Posted by: GeronL | 2009-07-15 5:13:45 PM
Post a comment