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Thursday, November 15, 2007
L. Ron Paul's Supporters Raided by FBI
Apparently the FBI and Secret Service has raided the offices of a company which has been selling "Liberty Dollars" and, more recently, "Ron Paul Dollars" allegedly backed by (or minted in) Gold and Silver.
Why? Well, this company was minting coins and issuing paper notes claiming to be "dollars" and which, at least in the case of the coins, might easily have been taken by individuals for notes and coins issued by the Mint or the Federal Reserve.
Of course, some will claim that these actions are no different than a company issuing gift cards or the like - as has already been attempted. This is utter nonsense. Companies which issue gift cards and the like don't specifically market them as a replacement for the U.S. dollar.
Neither do they, for that matter, sell them at a discount on a dollar-for-dollar basis and encourage people to make money by putting them into circulation.
Perhaps even more hillariously, given the intended market for these things, it appears that the minted gold, silver, and bronze coins were being told at markups of between 25% and 400% on the actual value of the precious metals contained therein. The only thing worse than a Goldbug is a stupid Goldbug and, apparently, these people were that in droves.
Now, Ron Paul's smarter supporters will attempt to distance themselves from such a disreputable operation. They can try and do that, of course - but, frankly, it will be difficult to with fifty pages of teeth gnashing from L. Ron's supporters about the raid. Moreover, any claim that Ron Paul didn't approve of or support this ought to be viewed skeptically in view of the fact that these people have been marketing these coins using his name and likeness since July at the very earliest.
Posted by Adam T. Yoshida on November 15, 2007 in Current Affairs | Permalink
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Comments
Barry Goldwater - arguably the father of American conservatism - has endorsed Ron Paul:
http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=51544
Posted by: Matthew Johnston | 2007-11-17 1:18:09 PM
Barry Goldwater died in 1998 - and lost his brain power in 1996 when he had a serious stroke.
Hmmmm. Reminds me of Roo Paul today.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-17 1:49:42 PM
obc~
Matthew is talking about Goldwater jr.
Posted by: shel | 2007-11-17 2:01:47 PM
shel ~
"Barry Goldwater - arguably the father of American conservatism -"
Jr. ain't the father of American conservatism.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-17 2:04:19 PM
obc~
probably a brain fart. we all get them. ;)
Posted by: shel | 2007-11-17 2:07:25 PM
shel ~
No big deal. As you said, we all . . .
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-17 2:10:21 PM
obc~
i know i've had a couple on this site. (damned embarassing). i was in the middle of a vociferous rant a week or so ago, dealing with some anti Israel pantywaist, and as i was bursting a vessel in my head while giving him some history, i implied the Balfour Declaration happened in the 1880s.
sh:)t...
Posted by: shel | 2007-11-17 2:18:25 PM
Reasonable people will not castigate an opponent (which you are NOT!) for a b.f. :)
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-17 2:21:09 PM
obc~
yeah. we might not agree on everything, but if we did... is that even possible? heh heh
i'm not a d.p. neocon, but that sure as hell doesn't make me a lefty.
good night
Posted by: shel | 2007-11-17 2:29:47 PM
Wrong Goldwater. Opps. :-)
Posted by: Matthew Johnston | 2007-11-17 2:32:40 PM
"Wrong Goldwater. Opps. :-)"
Roo Paul - Wrong candidate. Opps. :-)
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-17 2:51:11 PM
Yes, I know that Guiliani is a gun-grabbing, cousin screwing, neo-con abortionist BUT HEY! I'm a coward
and so frightened of the Arabs I can only hide behind his skirt like the little bitch that I am.
Go Rudy! hahaha
Posted by: Morty | 2007-11-18 11:11:19 AM
The Washington Post has an article out on the Liberty Dollar Raid.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/11/16/post_203.html?hpid=topnews
There is a blog at the end of it with some interesting posts. I have used Fox News as a guideline for "Fairness and Balance" and selected a few of those posts to display here for your perusal. Some Americans post their views:
First off, these coins are NOT part of Ron Paul's campaign!
Second, as for not trusting the money supply. The Federal Agents should be reminded that in the court case First National Bank of Montgomery vs. Jerome Daly
the US currency (federal reserve notes) are declared UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Read the ruling:
http://usa-the-republic.com/banks/bank_1.html
This is the Mafia-like Federal Reserve protecting their monopoly on money, nothing more. And completely unconstitutional, but the Fed Mafia doesn't care about that.
The dollar is tanking and if people knew there was a competing currency backed with gold and silver -- like our dollar used to be, before the Fed Mafia took over -- no one would want the lousy, Fed-inflated greenback anymore. That's what's behind this raid.
It's pure theft and pure racketeering. But the Mafia called the "government" does it, so it's OK. Disgusting. I'm glad Thomas Jefferson isn't alive to see what's happened to this country
Very Coincidental Indeed That They Would Choose To Raid When Ron Paul's Support Is Waxing And The Dollar Is Waning.
We Are In A State Of Financial Free Fall That Will Be Very Apparent In 2008.
Ron Paul' Economic Stance Will Be Vindicated Next Year. (Too Bad We All Have To Suffer To Prove Him Right)
Save The Republic, Vote Ron Paul In The Primaries !!!
Very misleading Title---wouldn't by any chance be deliberate??? This has nothing to do with the campaign except it does kind of reinforce the message! This action is totally wrong---are they going to confiscate Princess Di "coins" too? I think the truth is that this private money really shows what worthless crap a Federal Reserve note is. We need President Paul to get our liberties AND our finances the way they should be.
The Federal Reserve has just declared war on the American People and the media is unconscious. This is truly unbelievable. The question that every presidential candidate should be asked is Do the American people have a choice in the currency they use to settle private transactions? It is a yes or no question. These are scary times when the obvious is avoided at all costs and the inane given non stop coverage.
The mail and wire fraud would because they are selling the dollars that they claim are a fraud.
Bernanke is throwing a fit because Ron Paul about brought him to tears with the truth. Your choice is to inflate the currency and rob from people or let the bubble burst.
"The goal of NORFED is to undermine the United States government's financial systems by the issuance of a non-governmental competing currency for the purpose of repealing the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code,"
That does not make it illegal!
That is not a illegal goal. It would only be illegal if the used non legal means to do it such as violence. This is a legal means that many communities use.
They are not cheeting on taxes or breaking any law. They know it.
Stealing people Gold and Silver. Since when is owning Gold illlegal?
They just prove the point.
Don't only donate but also tell people every day about the message of liberty.
You are trustworthy, led the life with honesty and integrity.
You are a source of inspiration, a motivator toward action and the cause.
You inspire confidence in others and draw out the trust and best efforts of the people.
You convey confidence towards the proposed objective and inspire the best effort.
You function in an orderly and purposeful manner in situations of uncertainty.
People look toward you during the time of uncertainty and find reassurance and security when you portray confidence and a positive demeanor.
You are tolerant of ambiguity, calm, composed and steadfast to the main purpose. Storms, emotions, and crises will come and go. You take these as part of the journey and keep a cool head. You keep the main goal in focus and think analytically.
You view a situation as a whole and break it down into sub parts for closer inspection.
Keeping the goal in view, you break it down into manageable steps and make progress towards it.
You are committed to excellence, maintained high standards and proactive in raising the bar to achieve them.
You possess these qualities; some naturally present in you. Whether naturally qualities or not, you will diligent to consistently develop and strengthen them for the current and future generation to admire.
Dr. Paul, America is ready for you to lead.
Freedom, Prosperity and Peace.
The RP Revolution Army.
Posted by: JC | 2007-11-18 1:36:34 PM
A leader who does not berate and disavow his many followers that include numerous anti-Semites is not a leader the US should EVER countenance. PERIOD!
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-18 1:40:13 PM
JC~
i've read some of his platform, and like everything about it, except his stand on foreign policy.
if i was an American, and Ron Paul was a foreign policy hawk, i would vote for him.
it's simply too naive to believe that if we left the Middle East alone, they would leave us alone.
Posted by: shel | 2007-11-18 1:47:54 PM
shel,
Fair enough. I suppose that RP's proposal to pull out as fast as possible might have some fallout of its own but what really are the alternatives? Staying there? Obviously that's not working and its costing a ton. So what to do? (That and I don't feel that NATO should be sending anyone to wars that are undeclared. They're not our government...yet)your thoughts....
Posted by: JC | 2007-11-18 2:43:36 PM
obc,
I believe that you would yourself gain in credibillity if I saying "I can agree with many of Ron Paul's ideas except for his vues on foreign policy" rather than to insult the intelligence of everybody.
That's the point you refuse to face and that's sad.
Posted by: Marc | 2007-11-18 3:00:06 PM
JC~
you're correct about international agencies. nations, like individuals, are sovereign, and need never feel obligated to be bound to them.
in my opinion, the trouble really started brewing when the GOP reversed the logical directions of foreign and domestic policy after 9/11. the Republicans started expanding the State, and went into Iraq too tentatively.
should have been the other way around.
now the US is in an expensive quagmire, and the only way to get out of it is to either crack down with a very heavy surge and make it short and sharp (even if international opinion is contrary), or leave.
if you leave, the Iranian threat will increase. simply put, i don't think you could leave now if you wanted to, so you have to find an answer.
the only other option, if the US is backed into a corner and costs become prohibitive, is total destruction of parts of the Middle East. nobody wants that.
i think the only option is a major surge, and to hell with international opinion.
and shrink the f:)cking State at home!
after all, when the US sneezes, we catch a cold...
Posted by: shel | 2007-11-18 3:11:25 PM
Who cares what a separatist socialist thinks? Certainly not me.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-18 3:53:44 PM
And we all know that Socialism is Communism in drag.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-18 3:59:19 PM
shel,
Good points and observations all.
I'll continue to support RP based more on his policies for government at home, than his foreign policy. RP would absolutely have to face some of the realities you've mentioned about the Middle East, but perhaps he would be a little more pragmatic than those with ties to Halliburton, the Carlyle Group, Blackwater and Big Oil et;al.
Time will tell.
Posted by: JC | 2007-11-18 4:20:03 PM
That's Social-democrate independentist for you, obc. I'm ok for your attack but, why insulting the others ? There's extremists in every political movements and you're one in yours.
Ron Paul is an exemple for the republican and the Democrat parties. You don't like his vues on foreign policies because it includes Israel but that can be discuss. only, it's just funny you're destroying the candidate and everyone who's interested in is ideas based only on some affection by some extremists.
If this is a standard, why having political parties ?
Is he worst then Democrats in your book...?
This is just questions I'm asking myself.
Don't feel the need to answer.
Posted by: Marc | 2007-11-18 6:24:16 PM
JC~
yeah. if i was American it would be tempting to vote for Paul. i tend toward libertarianism. he's so damn close to the ideal Republican, it's frustrating i couldn't vote for him.
if he would only change his stand on foreign policy, he would be the man.
regarding big oil; don't forget, after WWII the US made a deal with the House of Saud and offered to build all of it's infrastructure if it would sell it's oil to you.
despite all that oil money (a couple trillion bucks or so, and growing by a half billion every day according to Frank Gaffney), Saudi Arabia is still the same undeveloped desert. holy crap! where in the HELL does all that money go? Wahhabist institutions and other radical Islamic groups are being funded all over the planet by the Saudis.
so it gets pretty complicated.
meanwhile, you guys have the most incredible Constitution in the world. there has never been a greater. it would be a shame to put it into jeopardy because of a belief that the terrorist threat would go away if you would just leave the Middle East alone.
good night
Posted by: shel | 2007-11-18 9:27:23 PM
shel,
I am one of those fortunate few who were born with dual citizenship. US / Can. And I have every intention of voting for Ron Paul. I am also a card carrying Libertarian living in Calgary.
As for the middle east? I believe "blow back" is real and it started with the Treaty of Versailles.
So there is so much of it that at this point its too late to ever fix it. However, leaving the rest of the world alone other than to trade honestly and openly with them has to be on the agenda somehow. It will take "statesmen" not politicians to figure out how...and they'll have to be Libertarian "minded" statesmen at any rate.
Ron paul is a good start to what I think will be a very long healing process...should it happen at all.
Good Night
JC
Posted by: JC | 2007-11-18 9:44:38 PM
Why I support Ron Paul:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IWfIhFhelm8&feature=related
Posted by: JC | 2007-11-18 10:53:42 PM
FYI:
A one-ounce gold Ron Paul Liberty Dollar sold over the weekend for $3537 ( http://cgi.ebay.com/Ron-Paul-NORFED-GOLD-Liberty-Dollars-VERY-RARE-NR_W0QQitemZ290182900357QQihZ019QQcategoryZ39484QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ).
And a one-ounce silver Ron Paul Liberty Dollar sold on eBay for $550 ( http://cgi.ebay.com/SILVER-20-RON-PAUL-LIBERTY-DOLLAR-My-Last-One_W0QQitemZ320183436146QQihZ011QQcategoryZ39489QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem )
I wish I had got some of these coins early on :-)
ari
Posted by: ariana | 2007-11-19 6:02:49 AM
From the article: "Based on the up-close view of how Liberty Dollars are distributed, the FBI alleges that "a multi-level marketing scheme" was in place whose main purpose is to enrich those involved in distributing the coins."
Of course, there is nothing illegal about multi-level marketing. Examples include Amway and Avon. It's interesting that FBI doesn't use the correct term for illegal multi-level marketing operations: pyramid schemes. The main reason they can't is because the Von NotHaus operation actually produces and delivers a product: the "medallion". And the 33% mark-up/commission structure is nothing compared to the Amway mark-ups.
Wikipedia article on multi-level marketing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_marketing
Wikipedia article on pyramid schemes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme
Posted by: ariana | 2007-11-19 10:03:20 AM
Sorry. I thought I posted the NY Sun article earlier:
'Spectacular Trial' Is Seen in Case of Liberty Dollar
http://www.nysun.com/article/66642
Posted by: ariana | 2007-11-19 10:07:44 AM
ariana,
I read the article. They offer a chance to send in comments. Inspired by one of your comments above...Here was the comment I sent them.
Among many aspects of this article that lead one to immediately accept that Mr. von NotHaus is automatically guilty of some Federal crime, I find particulary interesting the use of the term "multi level marketing". Which gives the impression that it is some sort of pyramid scheme. Multi level marketing is a method used by Avon and Amway to name just two. And it makes one generally wonder at the legitimacy of your atricle. But then again...we know who owns the main stream media don't we?
Posted by: JC | 2007-11-19 11:51:40 AM
"But then again...we know who owns the main stream media don't we?"
And you Roo Paul supporters still wonder why we view you as riddled with anti-Semites.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-19 11:54:33 AM
obc
You sir or madam are a genuinely paranoid idiot.
Who owns the mainstream media? Big Oil, Pharmaceutical Corporations and Politicians...are they Jewish? Hell I don't know and I don't care.
It just doesn't matter. Maybe you should come out of the cave and get a drift on which way the wind is blowing....towards Freedom!
Posted by: JC | 2007-11-19 12:13:19 PM
Read some of the commennts of your buddies, JC.
If that's what you really meant, you should have been clearer - in view of the Roo Paul supporters who freely admit their prejudice.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-19 12:18:04 PM
A Liberty Dollar really behaves like a security--that moves with it's underlying asset's value--so I don't really see where all the guff is all about. It seems to be more or a hybred currency betwixt money and the assets it secures--much as money used to be secured by actual assets. In a world where competition is the means--it seems to me that the Liberty dollar stands well on that basis. There is no evidence that two currencies cannot coincide at the same time--after all a few Eurpean have used more than one--what is at odds is the fact that the dollar itself--a oppossed to the Liberty Dollar--is government, and the Liberty is not. So, this adds that other factor that a state--as a corporation in and of itself, is just another incorporated body, and that its powers in regards to its own currencies may well have the same basis for legitimacy as any other.
Like Canadian Tire money. No one says boo about that--and it has been around for a very long time. It is not legal tender--so what? Does not stop people from saving them and useing them now does it?
Posted by: Lady | 2007-11-19 12:29:19 PM
obc
Unfortunately there are bigots in all walks of life and from every political spectrum.
I don't agree with or condone racism on any level and do in fact hope that Libertarians may count people from all colors, tribes and orientations among our numbers. Any Libertarian who isn't on board with that simple concept...isn't really on board at all. And if I may, I'll retract my colorful description of your comments.
Posted by: JC | 2007-11-19 12:35:24 PM
JC ~
. . . and I will, in turn, retract what I thought you meant when you were seemingly unclear.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-19 12:39:25 PM
Hey JC,
Great catch. I just assumed the NY Sun was like most of the other legacy media and not allowing the obvious interactivity advantages of the Internet.
Well done, sir.
ari
Posted by: ariana | 2007-11-19 12:45:12 PM
Lady,
I think what too many of us don't understand is that a "fiat" currency is barely worth the paper it is printed on, while a commodities backed currency is more stable.
Our present system has the dollar's value pegged on our labor, that is why we have sin numbers. So we are in effect government slaves. That is, in a nut shell, why the Fed is attacking the Liberty Dollar. They don't want anyone interfering with their "racket". I think it was Henry Ford who said something like; "It is well that people don't understand banking and the coining of currency, for if they did there would be a revolution by morning"
JC
Posted by: JC | 2007-11-20 9:04:07 AM
JC,
I've read the same Henry Ford quote. I don't have the context for that one, but I have a similar quote from Abraham Lincoln in a letter he wrote to Colonel William Elkins, November 21 1864:
"As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war."
It is this "corporatism" that Dr. Ron Paul is concerned about (and why he doesn't accept corporate donations--his average donation is under $100). He is not against free enterprise--far from. He lauds Microsoft for providing a service people want, but condemns corporations that feed from the public trough (too many to mention but Halliburton is an obvious example). (source: http://www.ronpaul2008.com/videos/2007-06-04-daily-show/ )
An excerpt from an aricle by Ron Paul entitled: "Democracy Is Not Freedom":
"The political right equates freedom with national greatness brought about through military strength. Like the left, modern conservatives favor an all-powerful central state – but for militarism, corporatism, and faith-based welfarism. Unlike the Taft-Goldwater conservatives of yesteryear, today's Republicans are eager to expand government spending, increase the federal police apparatus, and intervene militarily around the world. The last tenuous links between conservatives and support for smaller government have been severed. "Conservatism," which once meant respect for tradition and distrust of active government, has transformed into big-government utopian grandiosity." (source: http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul233.html )
ari
Posted by: ariana | 2007-11-20 11:05:04 AM
Man, it's refreshing to come back and see some real debate here. Epsi has some great comments and it seems we got a few Ron Paul supporters who can debate pretty decently. The gold standard certainly has its ups and downs, which need to be addressed. I think the reason that the gold standard appeals to me is that the worth of gold may fluctuate, but the market controls that fluctuation. I'd imagine that it'd be hard for one organization to purposefully devalue the gold I own. However with fiat money, since its centrally controlled or manipulated (depending on your opinion) a group of important people can decide the value of my cash. That's why the gold standard appeals to so many anti-one-world-government conspiracy theorists. They don't trust those important people. I don't trust them either, but not because they're part of an NWO. They can just be extremely incompetent... The monetary system is so complex. I feel as if government might as well attempt to control the weather. (And with all the global warming hype, I don't know how long it'll be before we try....)
Of course, I don't think you can run around like Andrew Jackson and just force people onto the gold standard. It would halt the expansion of credit and could be disasterous to the economy. But it would be nice to have a choice, an alternative. Hey, a little competition never hurt anybody. That's what Ron Paul advocates.
I wish you weren't always on the attack, opc. If you didn't inflame the Ron Paul supporters you'd be less likely to get those emotional responses that bother you so much. Honestly, some of us might surprise you if you gave us a chance. ;) Even if you insult us, we really don't go away...
Also, you might want to do some research beyond the Ron Paul website. The website is substantially better than when it started, but it really doesn't do a good job at all of getting his message across. Ron Paul's campaign actually is not all that web savvy. The supporters generated literally, all of the buzz themselves. Most Ron Paul supporters were converted by watching him speak on supporter psted YouTube videos because he takes the time to really explain his positions there. I suggest taking some time and seeing what makes the Ron Paul supporters tick. Listen to the man. That way you might be able to communicate in a way that will get across. (I'm assuming that you're trying to communicate of course, not just vent. If I got that wrong and you're just trying to get people to go away, then disregard this.) No one's ever going to see your side of the argument with the way you've been approaching the Paulites, except for those who already agree with you and just want to throw stones for sh-ts n giggles. :)
Posted by: Adrienne.Pass | 2007-11-20 8:29:01 PM
"Of course, I don't think you can run around like Andrew Jackson and just force people onto the gold standard. It would halt the expansion of credit and could be disasterous to the economy."
Hey Adrienne,
I'm not sure how it is that you conclude that Andrew Jackson was trying force anyone onto the Gold standard. It was pretty much the only kind of economy in place at the time. That, and the barter system. AJ was doing his best to keep "federalization" at bay. He was quoted as saying that "These international bankers are a pit of vipers and must be routed from these United States". Which is one of the real reasons for the civil war.
Viewed historically, the bankers and the credit scheme, along with the banker created Fed might well be viewed as a "racket". A way in which to make huge profits from interest payments and taxation. Credit can flourish only in a debt society. A debt society is best created through a government monopoly of money printing. A "fiat" currency, which has no real value and can be printed at will. Printing money out of thin air creates inflation which devalues all currency already in circulation. The eventuality as we are starting to see is that the economy itself is disastrous and eventually must self destruct as unsustainable.
Now don't get me wrong, I use credit too. Just like everyone else, and I'm not sure yet how to mix the two economic theories, Keynesian and Austrian, but there has to be a way to preserve the value of currency. As it stands, very few of us will ever be able to retire because the money we are saving today will essentially be worthless in 20 years. People tend to put the blame for this on "greedy businessmen" when really it is the government and its policies that are to blame, as was seen in the Great Depression of the 30's which was in fact created by the Fed.
Perhaps we should have a choice as to what kind of currency we use, without government involvement. Perhaps the Liberty Dollar and the possibilty of other such currencies ought to be available as viable alternatives to government currency backed only by our (slave) labor. Being a Libertarian I don't think that the government should be setting the stage for free trade...its simply not their job to tell us who we can and can't do business with or what medium of exchange we should be using. That is not "free" trade. Having government involvement is merely subjecting ourselves to government control. Which is what Andrew Jackson was trying to avoid.
Have a good one.
Posted by: JC | 2007-11-21 8:11:30 AM
"Ron Paul Courts 9-11 Troofers on Alex Jones Show...Again"
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/190191.php
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-21 5:36:43 PM
I happen to like Rudy Giuliani as well. He took great care of New York, when New York was attacked. He pulled people together, and he rallied for people like no other munipal Mayor had ever done before.
If I were American, I would indeed do whatever I could to ensure Rudy got in. He made a fantastic Mayor--proved his capabilities, and there is no doubt in my mind that he would be an absolutley superb President.
Posted by: Lady | 2007-11-21 6:42:51 PM
"there is no doubt in my mind that he would be an absolutely superb President."
Correction:
There is no doubt in my mind that he WILL be an absolutely superb President.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-21 6:50:18 PM
JC,
Slaves to the dollar--hmmm, given the fact that slavery was indeed a huge portion of the actual history of the USA (not that it never had a part in the history of the people who have made up Canada/sarcasm off), sure, securities backed is a very good thing. But let us get real for a second, you are only really referring to securities backed by natural resources. The majority of securities are not backed by natural resources (or cyclicals which are a portion of labour as well)--they are backed by commodities and other products that have their basis right back where you started--on the backs of people who work for a living. Having said that--most securities--or public corporations, permit the every day Joe--who works for a living, to actually invest in the company that they work for, and relish in the labour of their hands. If they are smart--this propels them forward as they have more than a job at stake. They get to reconnect with the pleasure of seeing the benefit of the labour of their interest.
And that is the beauty of the free world.
As for whether or not understanding banking or coining would make a nation more unstable--I think Henry Ford was wrong. The more people understand the system, the more they are able to see that their own interests and their nations interests--the overall prosperity--is one and the same. Only when people see that their own ends are in line with their nation, can they build a better place, and live without bitterness.
Rich men live and rich men die--just like everybody else. It is not a matter whether this is so or not, as it is, but what a person actually does with their life. Some are blessed with great intellect, and share their natural abilities freely--so that others may benefit. That some of those are rewarded, with currency or otherwise, means that if they use their intellect for the betterment of humanity--it is a win win all around.
Of course, it does take a buy-in. the only thing that stops people from buying-in, is their attitude.
Having said this, when it comes to government, there can only be one. You might laugh as in Canada, most people live inder three--and yet when you look at it closely, it is only really one.
Posted by: Lady | 2007-11-21 6:55:15 PM
obc,
Right you are--and I don't think you will make that mistake again.
The people love Rudy.
Posted by: Lady | 2007-11-21 6:56:55 PM
Hmmm, well Rudy certainly has the financial backing doesn't he? Gangsters and Globalists definitely see him as a worth while investment.
Better start practicing your "goose step".
The man is a snake...but he'll reveal that himself once he's "the new Decider".
Posted by: JC | 2007-11-22 6:46:23 AM
Shrillery is the TRUE Marxist dictator wanna-be. Red China is financing her. That's all I need to know about her.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-22 7:06:54 AM
JC,
I don't profess to be an expert on the life and times of Andrew Jackson, but I do know that there was a quite a bit of controversy regarding the gold standard back in the day. I actually did check my facts before I made the above statement. In Jackson's day, small local banks across the US were in the habit of issuing notes, not backed by commodities, that were then used to purchase land. Jackson issued an executive order called the Specie Circular or the Coinage Act that stated that land could only be purchased with hard currencies, gold and silver. This act is what I am referring to when I said Jackson was trying to "force people onto the gold standard". I do agree that I should have been more specific. I believe that you are factually incorrect when you say that species was the only currency being used back then; fiat currency was definitely mixed in back then.
If you review my previous postings, you'd see that I am actually a strong believer in Dr. Paul's position that alternative currencies should be made legal. I think hard-backed currencies are the only way keep our monetary system rooted in reality. ;) It keeps the flow of economic information accurate, helping to prevent mal-investment. Of course, there are a multitude of professional opinions on this matter and I'm a web developer, not a economist. I'll leave the more complicated explanations to Dr. Paul.
I do, however, believe that Jackson's actions
were very polarizing (resulting in the creation of the whig party to counter-act his influence.) It, of course, is a matter of opinion whether Jackson was a great president or not (see his actions leading up to the War of 1812 and the Native American side of the story.) I am of the opinion that he was a very brave, smart man who took on the bankers of the day, an extremely powerful group of people who were in a position to literally control our country. That takes 'balls,' so to say. :) I also have reservations towards calling him a great man because of his extensive use of federal power, executive orders, etc. You could say I'm split on Jackson. :(
I think Dr. Paul is a step above Mr. Jackson simply because he understands the presidential role as dictated by the constitution. He knows even if his opinions may be correct, there is an ethical and moral flaw in the belief that one man can implement his beliefs via executive orders against the will of congress or the people even for the good of everyone (though some would argue that it was a bought congress and hence he had to do _something_.)
Man, there come my libertarian roots! :D
Guiliani and Hillary scare the crap out of me. Both will expand the state even further, and believe it or not, I'm not sure which one would expand it faster...
Posted by: Adrienne Pass | 2007-11-23 1:50:33 PM
Hey Adrienne,
Interesting summation and I would need to have more background than I do to find any flaws in it.
The actual economy of the day back in the 1850s and 60s is a tad beyond my research and I may well be off base. I have read some good books about the politcal conflicts between North and South. And I agree with Mencken when he says, "the only thing wrong with Lincoln's Gettysburgh address is that it was the South, not the North who were fighting for a government of the people, by the people" A very good book on the subject is John V. Denson's "A Century of War".
In it he explains very matter of factly about how the US became involved in the Civil War, the First World War and the Second World War. Believe me, it isn't what we were taught in school.
I'm glad to hear about Libertarian roots. How can anyone not understand the simple concept of freedom? Only the very small in character need to control others.
I am actually going to be able to vote in the primaries...and you know who I'll be voting for right? The one who isn't a thief! The only one talking about resonsibility in government.
The only one who has actually delivered babies and has some respect for human life...Yup! Dr. Paul.
Posted by: JC | 2007-11-24 4:57:07 PM
Roo Paul is still stuck in single digits. With that in mind, he should have become a proctologist.
Posted by: obc | 2007-11-24 5:02:00 PM
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