The Shotgun Blog
Saturday, January 21, 2006
Gagliano's criminal background check
We've all heard of Alfonso Gagliano. For a reminder of his attributes, here's Paul Martin's video love letter to him.
Gagliano has a handful of critics, too. Here's the intrepid Kevin Steel's take on the Liberal boss in a recent issue of our mag.
And here, for the first time, by way of Access to Information, is the RCMP's background check on Gagliano done before Jean Chretien first appointed him to the cabinet. It is in the form of a multi-page letter from the RCMP Commissioner of the day, and is marked "SECRET" on every page.
UPDATE: By request, here is a .pdf version that includes the access to information cover letter referring to Gagliano by name.
As you can see, it is almost completely blacked out (actually, the government "whites" things out these days, to appear less heavy-handed). But enough is left to understand why Gagliano and Adscam go together like peas and carrots.
Commissioner Norman Inkster suggests that Gagliano be fingerprinted to prove or disprove the worst of his findings.
I wonder if Paul Martin will release the rest of this document. I wonder what Judge Gomery would think of it. I wonder how ethical it was to put such a man, with such a long letter of condemnation from the police, in charge of the country's public works. I wonder when Martin first knew about this, and what he did, as Canada's Finance Minister, to protect the treasury from his colleague. And I wonder why, despite all this, Martin called Gagliano a great man.
Posted by Ezra Levant on January 21, 2006 | Permalink
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Ezra Levant; I just received a note that Paul Martin went "bonkers" at a speech in Brampton today: "hoarse, shouting, chanting Belinda Stronach's name, shouting back and forth with some wacko supporter in the audience." (I can't run video on... [Read More]
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» Gagliano's criminal background check from Complacent Nation
Click for full article from the Western Standard We've all heard of Alfonso Gagliano. For a reminder of his attributes, here's Paul Martin's video love letter to him. Gagliano has a handful of critics, too. Here's the intrepid Kevin Steel's take on [Read More]
Tracked on 2006-01-22 5:19:55 PM
Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?
Posted by: Plato's Stepchild | 2006-01-21 6:23:28 PM
From the Halifax Herald today:
Another Martin flag of convenience
Canada Steamship Lines, the company owned by Paul Martin's family is known for flying "flags of convenience" to avoid paying Canadian taxes and Canadian wages. Now there's news that another CSL ship, the Atlantic Superior may be reflagged as soon as this election is over. From the Halifax Chronicle Herald:
The rumour on the docks is that Canada Steamship Lines Inc., the company Mr. Martin built and eventually handed to his sons, plans to register it abroad and hire a cheaper foreign crew, but is waiting until Tuesday, because the news might hurt Mr. Martin’s electoral chances if it came out in the middle of the campaign.
"That’s why he might have kept the Canadians on board until just after the election, because he knows that it would kill them if he would do so right now," said a union source, who asked not to be named.
The plan to re-flag the ship seems to be the worst kept secret around the docks in Halifax.
"The Canadian crew have been pretty open about it around the port, that the ship will be reflagged and crewed with Russians after the election," said one waterfront source, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Putting the Canadian crew on the unemployment rolls to hire lower paid Russian sailors; paying much lower taxes to Liberia, Singapore, Bahamas, even Vanuatu - anywhere but Canada - that's all part of doing business at CSL.
Posted by: Ren | 2006-01-21 7:07:40 PM
A kick-ass post, Ezra! The whiteouts on the document are very suspicious to say the least.
Why would fingerprinting Gagliano be necessary wrt the findings in the document? That sounds extremely serious.
Questions will be raised. Fears about Libranos will be heightened. I hope it's used as a bomb on the Libranos.
No way in hell will Paulie M. let us know what's in the document at all. We'll have to wait for Mr. Harper's people to see it for themselves while they're getting the place tidied up in preparation for the real tidying up...
Betcha the MSM will cover this up with a lead blanket.
Posted by: Canadian Sentinel | 2006-01-21 7:16:22 PM
Ezra, don't you know the "Standard Line"? Paul Martin knew nothing .... nothing about what was happening anywhere in Quebec, just because he was the senior minister in Quebec meant nothing .... nothing. He was too busy unilaterally saving the economy, giving jobs to people and singlehandedly saving Canada to know such trivial things.
Posted by: Richard Pearson | 2006-01-21 8:16:33 PM
It makes perfect sense that Martin would refer to Gagliano as a "great man". In my experience, the less backbone people have, the more they seem reflexively to consider the powerful -- not just the be-robed, but the potentially dangerous and the threatening -- as being "great men" whenever they are proximate to them. Bad neighbourhoods and bad politics thrive on such respectful appreciations. Safety and justice thrive in places predominated by a different kind of people, those who are duty-bound by their own morality to not aquiesce to immoral forces.
When Don Martin calls Harper's remarks "over the top" he is correct, in the sense that the supine, finger-thrumming morality of the craven, expense-account intrigue-hounds and gossips who predominate opinion politics has no elevation to it whatsoever. Anything important to fundamental morality will always go well over the heads of that tribe. They'll never even see it. It's the Liberal-values "well, I didn't see anything, and if I did, I certainly wouldn't say anything" aproach to journalism.
It's safe to say that Kevin Steel and the Western Standard have gone way, way over the top relative to Don Martin. That's why I'm a subscriber and will continue to be. I would encourage anyone unhappy with the level of coverage and background in our newspapers to try it out.
Posted by: EBD | 2006-01-21 8:29:22 PM
Folks, I really don’t think it’s outrageous to start asking questions about the Liberal party of Canada and ties to the mob. No I’m not being facetious. I’ve been an observer of Italian-Canadian organized crime for years and have several highly placed contacts in law enforcement as well as in journalism as it pertains to this subject. Even leaving aside the New York Post story about Galliano being a made man of the Bonnano family, there are certainly a lot of other leads, some Kevin Steel already touched upon.
Now, if the RCMP had a file on him before he entered politics and became a cabinet minister, than Chretien surely has much to answer for in why he handed a man with mob associations the keys to public works -- (assuming he even had a choice)
Posted by: Stopthetrain | 2006-01-21 8:50:45 PM
I'm no fan of Gagliano but the comment about Inkster recommending he be finger printed is incorrect and unfair. The line in question "A positive identification can only be made by a fingerprint comparison." is a standard disclaimer written at the bottom of any CPIC criminal record check no matter who is being checked out. If you doubt this, go down to your local police station and have your own CPIC check done and you will find that line there.
Posted by: Paul | 2006-01-21 9:25:21 PM
That PM video gave me chills considering all we know about Alfonso so far.
Posted by: TrustOnlyMulder | 2006-01-21 9:58:08 PM
I finished reading the Conservative platform tonight, and want to quote this from it....page 25..."Restore the Canada Ports Police - disbanded by the Liberals, which resulted in the growth of organized crime at Canada's seaports."
I'm connecting dots here, and hopefully I'm wrong....but my instinct/intuition says that there's more to be found out. Perhaps the biggest fear of all is not that there will be a change of power, but rather that there will be a deeper investigation.
I'm stunned by the plan for Accountability in the Conservative platform, because I honestly thought that this was in place already. I mean, why wouldn't it be??? What has been going on all of these years???
God help Canada.
Posted by: RZ | 2006-01-21 11:11:22 PM
The letter gives the results of checks done on several individuals. Perhaps Mr G's was clean and others were tainted (or perhaps all were tainted...)
Posted by: Pierre | 2006-01-21 11:29:50 PM
I'm not so sure about that document EL. The dates don't jive with Inkster's commission, unless he was in transission from the time Zaccardelli was appointed in 2002.
If so, then I wasn't aware that we had two RCMP Commissioners. Also the original typed written date isn't there only one written and one stamped.
As Pierre points out the document indicates 'plural' persons and means nothing - still.
How do we know that the request is an FoI? Do you have a copy of the original letter sent to the RCMP and their response?
If the stamp at the bottom of the records says the document was no longer classified then why is it red-acted? And what are those clauses refering to? The Official Secrets Act?
I'm skeptical but perhaps you may want to check out this bullboard from Stockhouse. I added a little excerpt as it was a little long
How sweet it is----and they had such high profile fronts too----"Buck" Revell & Norm Inkster--really high profile law enforcement patsies that loaned their names to a highly questionable penny stock play for money.
Visiphor ex-suitor Pembridge slapped with judgment
2005-12-29 09:57 ET - Street Wire
by Lee M. Webb
Visiphor Corp.'s former consultant and purported buyout suitor, Boston-based Pembridge Group Ltd., has been slapped with a partial default judgment that includes a $550,000 (U.S.) civil penalty in a securities fraud lawsuit brought by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) in the U.S. District Court for the District of Massachusetts.
Posted by: habamusrodentum | 2006-01-22 12:57:54 AM
Stopthetrain says "assuming he even had a choice....." What a scary thought.
How about "he knew Alphonso was the ideal candidate for the job to be done..."
Posted by: edncda | 2006-01-22 1:11:52 AM
Ezra, much as I was excited when I first read this post and that letter, I am inclined to agree with Pierre, Paul, and habamusrodentum.
That letter is a long one that refers to more than one person so how do we know that any alleged criminal record was Alphonse Gagliano's?
And while the part of the letter where former RCMP Commissioner Norman Inkster says, "As you can see, the above information is highly sensitive..." is cause for concern, on the other hand I had a routine criminal background check for employment 3-months ago and even though mine was 100% clean, I still remember a line on my report that went something like, "A positive identification can only be made through a fingerprint comparison."
So I think maybe it behoves Paul Martin to answer all of your questions including providing the Canadian people more information on WHICH, if any, of the "persons who are being considered for appointment" (assuming they were actually appointed) have a criminal record and what KIND of criminal record, this doesn't appear to be enough information to prove that Gagliano has one.
Posted by: Chris from Victoria, BC | 2006-01-22 3:57:57 AM
You're kidding, right? This doc't is entirely blacked out except for the boilerplate intro and conclusion. There is NOTHING HERE. The worst type of smear job -- Swift Boat much, Ezra?
Posted by: M-J | 2006-01-22 6:32:22 AM
The way Paul Martin took over the federal Liberal Party in BC and Canada will likely cost him the 2006 election.
By Bill Tieleman
Published: January 18, 2006
"Be careful that victories do not carry the seed of future defeats." - Ralph W. Sockman
To understand why the federal Liberal Party might be about to lose the 2006 election, you must go back in time to June 23, 1990.
That's the date of the Liberal leadership vote that saw Paul Martin come in a distant second to Jean Chretien and marks the start of an internal party war that has never truly stopped.
Nowhere has that war been fought as fiercely as here in British Columbia. And it will soon rage again as those who succeed in toppling Chretien in 2003 to install Martin as prime minister pay the price for not only political failure, but their arrogance and vicious tactics that alienated many party members.
The results of the federal Liberals battling among themselves will soon be clear, as the "natural governing party" that has been in power for most of the past 100 years is relegated to opposition and Martin is forced to resign the prize he spent 13 long years chasing.
An incoherent and stumbling campaign, a severe shortage of experienced political staff, volunteers and money, and an abundance of bad blood between the Martin and Chretien camps has left the Liberals lurching towards disaster.
BC's big Liberal losers
Among the impending big losers in B.C. are such key federal Liberal players as:
* Mark Marissen, Liberal Campaign co-chair in B.C., prominent federal lobbyist and husband to former B.C. Liberal Deputy Premier Christy Clark, a former Ottawa Liberal staffer before entering provincial politics in 1996;
* Bruce Young, the Earnscliffe Strategy Group's Vancouver office corporate lobbyist and occasional staffer in the prime minister's office;
* Erik Bornman, the former Paul Martin aide and one-time Liberal operative nicknamed "Spiderman" for his late 1990s break-in to B.C. party headquarters, where a membership list allegedly resided. Bornman, an ex-provincial lobbyist who is now a UBC law student, will be a crown witness against David Basi and Bob Virk, the two fired Campbell Liberal ministerial assistants who go on trial April 24 for breech of trust following the dramatic 2003 police raid on the B.C. Legislature in connection with the sale of BC Rail;
* Jamie Elmhirst, Liberal Party President for B.C. and provincial lobbyist, active also in the Campbell Liberal Party. Elmhirst and partner Brian Kieran had a police search warrant served at their Victoria offices in the Basi/Virk case, likely because of Erik Bornman's role in their firm until the raid;
* Bill Cunningham, the Burnaby-Douglas Liberal candidate, former party president in B.C. and a ranking federal government staffer in B.C.;
* Bruce Clark, Christy's brother, a Liberal executive member in B.C. and Martin fundraiser whose home was searched by police in the Basi/Virk investigation;
* Sharon Apsey, the Party's Regional Vice President for BC and a key backroom operator instrumental in Martin's takeover, as well as a Gordon Campbell provincial Liberal with ties to cabinet minister Ida Chong.
'The Godfather': David Anderson
Two things tie this group of federal Liberals together: their involvement in taking over the federal Liberal Party while Jean Chretien was sitting as one of the most electorally successful Liberal prime ministers ever and their connections to David Anderson, the retiring Victoria Liberal MP and former cabinet minister who served as a political godfather to them all.
Ironically, Anderson's longtime and often secret support of Martin, even while he sat as Chretien's Environment Minister, went spectacularly unrewarded, when, in 2004, Martin unceremoniously dumped him from cabinet.
But when the Martinites began their long march to power and plotted to get rid of Chretien, it was David Anderson who provided them financial and moral support. Marissen, Bornman, his brother Ray Bornman, Elmhirst and others all found jobs in Anderson's ministries or government with his help at various times.
The other connection is through the University of Victoria federal Liberal organization, a constant recruiting ground where promising operatives like Basi were found.
To call the battle the Martin forces launched to take over the federal Liberal Party in British Columbia vicious would be an understatement.
The most damning comments one can find about Paul Martin and his B.C. takeover team are not found on Conservative or New Democrat websites - to get the measure of the malevolence, check out the words of former Chretien Liberal activists. >> much more
Posted by: maz2 | 2006-01-22 7:16:08 AM
Personally, I can't wait until the Canadian rightwing wins, dismantles the social saftey net, empowers the white supremists with penis envy for US imperialism--and becomes the US's nazi shock troops in myriad wars of agression.
Surely, the obsequious nature of the Canadian rightwing to US criminality will hasten the fall of the neocon rightwing.
Canadians have been riding the parasitic coattails of US imperialism long enough--we now demand your children to be sacrificed.
Posted by: Slave Revolt | 2006-01-22 8:23:22 AM
Slave Dolt: Can I be in the Gestapo ? You're funny !
Posted by: MarkAlta | 2006-01-22 9:00:56 AM
Dirty Money Really Smells
"It didn't smell right," a bank-clerk told prosecutor Gioacchino Natoli when he heard her in Montreal during a rogatory investigation, following the arrest of Caruana and Cuffaro. Natoli still recalls the event with surprise. (62) The dirty money the clan laundered through several Canadian banks really stank. "It smelled musty." The cash was all in small bills of two, five or ten dollars, the typical denomination of drug transactions on the street.
The bulk of the evidence used by Falcone to indict the Cuntrera-Caruana clan in 1989 was gathered by one single policeman from Montreal. Sergeant Marc Bourque of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police was appointed to investigate the financial aspects after the seizure of 58 kilo of heroin in 1985.
One of the persons under arrest was Gerlando Caruana. When Bourque wanted to look into Caruana's bank accounts, an employee said he would not find much there, but he should look at the accounts of Gerlando's brother, Alfonso Caruana. (63) What Bourque found there would keep him busy for the next five years. He code-named his investigation Operation Pilgrim – and a pilgrimage it proved to be. Bourque wandered through the international financial worl; he heard 300 witnesses in nine countries, his dossier amounted to 3,600 pages. Bourque laid bare the money laundering system of the clan in Montreal – although whether he found all the money, nobody knows.
In one bank alone Bourque traced nearly 16 million US dollars laundered through accounts of Alfonso Caruana. Every week a couple of Sicilians entered the branch of the City & District Bank in the Montreal suburb Dollard-des-Ormeaux carrying hockey-bags filled with half a million in cash. The tellers spent a half day counting the small bills. The clan brought in its dirty dollars and walked out with clean bank drafts. Thirty-six million US dollars ended up in Swiss bank-accounts which were used to pay the Sicilian heroin suppliers. (64) The dollars the clan transported to Canada were enough to supply the Montreal money-exchange market with its weekly requisite of US cash. Bourque could trace some US$ 50 million laundered by the clan through 4 Canadian banks from 1978 until 1984.
When Bourque presented his case to the Justice Department he was told that it would be discarded: it was deemed too expensive and too intricate. His pioneering investigation never reached a Canadian court. The Department had neither the time nor the money to prosecute the case. The mere summoning of the witnesses alone would cost four or five million dollars.
"Money doesn't just fall of the trees," says Bourque. "There is no legitimate business in Montreal which generates half a million every week, except the drug business." He is disgusted with the collaboration of Canadian banks. They earned some 4 to 5 percent on the transactions. The banks must have been aware of the shady backgrounds. After a while they all discreetly showed the Italians the door. But the clan always found a new financial institution to continue their affairs, carefully planning its steps. The bank branches it selected had Italian-born directors, no doubt more sensitive to the ways and means of the Mafia. Aldo Tucci, the director of the City & District branch, was completely integrated in the clan's system. He set up front store companies and neglected his work for the bank. Eventually Tucci was fired.
The Italian judicature very much appreciated the results of Sergeant Bourque's investigation, piecing it together with evidence they gathered during the Italian inquiry of the Pizza Connection. Bourque's evidence was subsequently used in the trials against Cuntrera-Caruana family members.
Bookkeeping is a Dangerous Business
The Italian community abroad is vulnerable to infiltration by its criminal countrymen. That doesn't mean that every Sicilian is a mafioso. Far from it. The most arduous mafia-fighters, like Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino, are often Sicilian. Nevertheless, mafiosi use the Italian communities to hide in, especially when they are from the same village or region on Sicily.
On a visit to Siculiana – the village on the south coast of Sicily where the Cuntreras and Caruanas were born – an elderly villager who spent most of his working life in Germany told me the story of how he was approached by a Cuntrera to 'lend' him his son. The man who had known the family when they still lived in Siculiana, did not think it was a good idea. Why, he would not tell. Nevertheless, it was clear what we were talking about.
Siculiana once counted 12,000 inhabitants; now there are only 5,000 left. During the 1950s and 1960s the village emptied, the men moved to Belgium, Germany, England, Canada, Venezuela, Brazil. Most were merely trying to make a living; others went for more sinister reasons. Some, like Alfonso Gagliano, representative in the Canadian Federal Parliament for Montreal's 'Little Italy' Saint Leonard, rose to prominent positions.
Siculiana-born Canadian politician Alfonso Gagliano finally became a minister, but did not manage to stay out of trouble
Les affaires de Gagliano
The accountant Gagliano is a loyal supporter of Canada's Prime-Minister Jean Chrétien. Gagliano organized the Liberal Party's fund raising for the 1993 election-campaign. He was a candidate for a position in the new government of Mr Chrétien. The RCMP is asked to screen every probable future minister, and Mr Gagliano didn't quite pass the test. (65) The Montreal daily La Presse revealed why: Gagliano's accountancy firm kept the books of Agostino Cuntrera, a nephew of Pasquale Cuntrera and implicated in the murder of Paolo Violi, boss of the local Cotroni-family, in 1978. The murder was a sign that the Sicilian clan had taken over control in Montreal. Agostino Cuntrera was never convicted; he struck a deal with the Canadian Justice Department.
Asked about his relationship with Agostino Cuntrera, Gagliano said: "Mr Cuntrera is an acquaintance. We both come from Siculiana. I met him during a engagement in a church. He came to me in the 1970's when he wanted me as his bookkeeper for his restaurant." Gagliano et Cie kept Agostino Cuntrera as a client after his complicity in the Violi-murder was revealed. Agostino Cuntrera and Gagliano saw each other occasionally during marriages and activities of the Association de Siculiana, a cultural association founded by Mr Gagliano, who was its first president. Some years after Mr Gagliano's chairmanship, Agostino Cuntrera became president of the association.
Nor was Agostino Cuntrera the only client of Gagliano. Another was Dima Messina, the financial aid of Montreal Mafia-boss Vito Rizzuto. An RCMP investigation showed that Messina laundered 22 million Canadian dollars for Rizzuto in 1986-88. Rizzuto's Ferrari Testarossa (a 250,000 dollar Italian sports car) was registered under Messina's name.
During the controlled delivery of 58 kilos of heroin to Montreal in 1985 – the RCMP and British Customs were aware of the traffic and closely watched the transactions – one of the traffickers, Filippo Vaccarello, and an unidentified person, were observed entering the office of Mr Gagliano before the heroin arrived. After leaving the office Vaccarello proceeded with a tour of notorious bars well-known as selling points for heroin.
Bookkeeping proves to be a sensitive business for a politician. When the matter was discussed in Parliament after La Presse disclosed the facts, Premier Chrétien declared: "This Parliament would be much better off if we had more Gagliano's." >> more
Posted by: maz2 | 2006-01-22 9:44:49 AM
I guess it's too late to acquire an injunction to seal all the paper shredders in Ottawa and the Liberal Party, Civil Service and associated connections? Would be nice if all that history was available for PM Harper and staff on Tuesday at 12:01 AM..
Posted by: Marmot Days - Victoria | 2006-01-22 11:24:49 AM
Added point anyone working for the government in sensitive areas has to have a security back ground check and there are, I believe, four different levels of security labeling, the uppermost being 'secret'
I even have a copy of an application on my blog (I'll look for the link later) as well as an explanation.
I had to get a minimum standard security clearance that involves a CPIC check - what that is is a criminal data base. So if your name is on it for various reasons the RCMP will provide that information but they have to get if first from the provincial and municipal law enforcement agencies.
The second process of that security clearance appears not to have been completed because it was sent to Ward Elcock of CSIS. It is then CSIS job to find out any other security concerns about that person or persons - they have their methods of going about doing it - from their own survellaince files, etc and because of their close links to the U.S. because of legislated rights to do so, they can get other information on individuals.
CSIS will then prepare a report and submit it to - what it appears here as the Privy Council via W. Elcock and make security recommendations to the government. It's important to remember that CSIS's reports, security viewpoints are NON BINDING on the Crown - the government can refuse to adhere to them - but if they do, then that would cause some concern but worse if they were made public.
Case in point - Martin's team ignored signets sent by CSIS at an election dinner/speech that was being hosted by the Tamil Tigers. There is a difference between the Canadian Tamil community and by the Tamil Tigers, which are listed on CSIS's website as a terrorist organization (that took awhile to get on there because the Liberals were calling the opposition's valid concerns as 'racist') Groups that engage in using terror as a method of political expediency often use the distraction of the race card to pull away scrutiny off themselves and onto the persons who are inquiring. Paul Martin appeared to have played along even though the had received the warnings from CSIS - so you can't say that he was engaged in due diligence to protect the public interest of all Canadians - I suppose not when money to support your campaign and power are involved.
And bty call me 'HR' instead of the long form
Posted by: habamusrodentum | 2006-01-22 12:00:42 PM
Here is a link to how the CSIS conducts security checks
EL - are you able to post in .pdf format copies of the full clauses the RCMP sent you?
It may also be helpful to post a link to the Access to Information legislation so the rest of us can scrutinize it for ourselves to make sure the FoI legislation was adhered to by the RCMP
I'm not sure where there is information regarding accessing de-classified information in Canada but here is a good paper to read regarding access to information with respect to the CSIS's declassified info
If your serious about this then I would consult an FoI lawyer about that letter the RCMP sent you. I'm inclined to appeal it on the grounds that the info red-acted was de-classified and should have been included.
I'm of the opinion the RCMP should have included a clause in their letter with respect to appealing the new information. If you look at the legislation that will give you an idea what they are to include and what your rights are.
Otherwise, if there is someone you know in the United States in the media and is able to get declassified FBI information on Gagliano - you'll probably have better luck in the U.S. than in Canada. Our FoI laws are pretty lame.
The following links are not meannt to redirect intentionally but since I brought up Martin and the Tamil Tigers it's a good segway for them and terrorism in general
Posted by: habamusrodentum | 2006-01-22 12:55:24 PM
There isn't a Liberal insider from Quebec who could survive cross examination in a criminal trial.
Posted by: WLMackenzie redux | 2006-01-22 2:39:37 PM
Thanks for this great post. You've got some really good info in your blog.
Mary Anne Martin
Posted by: Mary Anne Martin | 2006-05-08 12:43:15 PM
This blog posting was of great use in learning new information and also in exchanging our views. Thank you.
Mary Anne Martin
Posted by: Mary Anne Martin | 2006-05-08 12:45:16 PM
Shouldn't the criminal record be looked at in the beginning before he was appointed instead of now? and if Gagliano gets a pardon will that change anything for him?
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